Imported boat without its papers

[Memphis_Chung]

Hi,

I am considering buying a 17 year old boat that was imported from the US a few years ago. In terms of papers, all it has is a receipt that the current owner got from the previous owners who had originally bought the boat into the country.

I am assuming that without papers and in particular proof that VAT was paid on import, I could have problems in the future.

Is this correct?

Thanks,

Tom

 

[Gludy]

yes - you could have problems on VAT and on CE. Is it CE certified? if not, its illegal,

 

[BrokerBen]

Gludy is right about the illegal nature of the boat if not CE Marked... However...

As a result of this there is a bargain to be had there IF you can convince the owner of this. The cost of CE Marking a 17 year old boat is high, especially as the engine if original will not meet emission regs most likely, and even if it does the test is expensive.

Any questions on CE Marking drop me a PM, as having made a living CE Marking American boats for 2 years I have some experience in the field /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ben

 

[neale]

Was CE marking around 17 years ago?? If not, the boat won't differ from a UK supplied model.

 

[BrokerBen]

Not relevant.

The point that matters is when the boat was imported.

If it was after June 16th 1998 then it will NEED to be CE marked before it can be placed on the market or in service. This is UK Law.

 

[Memphis_Chung]

Thanks guys. I take it therefore, that if I am restricting boat use to UK waters, the real problem of evidence of lack of CE certification will come when I come to sell it (where lack of VAT proof will also be a problem) or if there is an accident.

Is CE certification ever automatic (i.e. if the type of imported boat is the same spec that the manufacturer officially brought in to the country)? Regardless, I am ssuming some paperwork would be required.

 

[andrewa]

It depends on the price and whether its the boat you want, I have CE certified two boats both personal imports but not since this emissions part started and kept all the docs for them. I know I have lost a sale on my current one against a non CE certified US import.

As for VAT you can't get them off of the docks unless it has been paid. In my view CE is irrelevant until it is enforced on the used and personal import market by government and insurance companies, how many UK supplied boats pre 1997 are sold each year with no docs? Once a boat is 17 years old it may have had 5 or more owners papertrails tend to dry up over that time.

I think the new engine parts of the CE standards have just made things worse, unless you are repowering with new power people just wont bother but will still continue to buy boats at up to 50% of UK prices the savings are just too great.

I was down at Dock Gate 4 in Soutampton on Friday picking up a Skyline for my brother in laws son, whilst I was waiting I wandered down towards QE2 dock where the Hual carrier comes in from the US, I counted over 25 boats sitting there some in shrink wrap all used and they were just the ones I could see infront of the large motor homes, there were more behind, if all of those were going to be CE certified then someones going to be busy for a while, but I would be surprised if even a third are done.

I do feel sorry for the legitimate dealers and even people like myself in a way who played by the rules and suffer accordingly. Sorry if I have gone a bit off topic from your original question.

 

[Gludy]

The answer is world pricing - it means tha there is no large price difference.

 

[Bilgediver]

There are two issues....one is the VAt/duty which can raise its head at any time in the future when some one with a portcullis on his cap might approach with upturned palm demanding Groats or Shekels.

The other is CE. Forget about the boat being the same as boats bought in 17 years ago. The law was implimented in June 1998 and basically states that ANY boat imported from outside Europe after that date must have CE certification to be sold. Therefore whoever is selling this boat is acting illegally.

CE certification can be obtained within this country and there are a number of ways for getting it.

WHen a boat receives CE it is graded to a level of A B C or D and depending which level you go for the cost will vary from a minimum for D to maximum for A if indeed the boat can reach this level.

You don t say what boat this is so difficult to comment.

D classification is easy to obtain with a minimum amount of effort and cost however D restricts the boat to inland waterways and lakes.

A is for ocean going and requires stability calculations and design parameters to be confirmed. This can be around 6000 pounds for a 32 foot yacht if done by a third party however there is a procedure for obtaining this certification yourself using the RYA as a notifiable body . Check with the RYA technical dept.

Some american companies have gone through this process so that they could supply CE boats post 1998 (Island Packet etc) and you may find them willing to provide technical data willingly and without charge as part of customer service.

You may find that your insurance company is not interested in CE.. After all how can they deem a boat they insure in the UK is unsafe when they may be insuring an identical boat for identical use in another country LOL .

This topic has been talked to death here so do a search but make sure you are settled down with a good bottle of malt as there is a lot to read.

The big grey area is the engine.....this is supposed to meet current emission but testing is a problem as this can only be done ashore with a dry exhaust!!!!

Check with the RYA as I will be doing again later this year.

 

[Memphis_Chung]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think I will working on the the "there's always another one around the corner" principle and walking away......

 

[BrokerBen]

In which case, would you mind sharing info on boat type and the likes? It's always interesting to know what's out there!!!

Also there is potential for a bargain there /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I would also add from an insurance perspective I am sure they wouldn't care at the point of taking your money, but come payout time the CE status would be remarkably important to them!

The inforcement of the regulations is coming, customs are being given power to check CE status at the same time as VAT /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

So do not dispair people, there is light at the end of the legal tunnel.

Ben

 

[neale]

I accept what you are saying and agree entirely. The point I was trying to make is, if you were buying a secondhand boat that was 17 years old. It wouldn't be CE marked. Therefore if the seller didn't tell you it was an import, how would you know?

I am not saying people should be dishonest but I know of one case of a boat being bought in good faith as a UK supplied boat with ownership papers going back a few years showing Brit owners. But as the gelcoat started to fade in the sunlight, A Florida registration number appeared. This boat is pre CE marking and was widely sold in the UK. To the next owner, there is no difference between it, and a proper UK supplied boat and no way of knowing if it was an import unless the seller declares it. As to when it was imported. No one knows as there is no paperwork relating to importation.

 

[BrokerBen]

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am not trying to argue or get up anybody's nose...

US and UK boats are not the same. CE Marking is not just a piece of paper, the standard American boat have to comply with are different to ours, for example:

American boat I have seen and worked on have engine spaces lined with carpet, or acoustic foam which is not compliant.

American boats have crew limits based on average person weight of 60kg, where as in the UK we have the average at 75kg.

American boats skin fittings for sink, bilge pumps etc have in most cases no means of stopping water coming in through them, and no means of closing them, which is not acceptable in many cases here.

Many US boats I have seen have no electrical or fuel cut offs, which in many cases are a legal requirement.

It is not as simple as a UK boat being stamped, and a US one not being, or at least it shouldn't be, although in my experience in some cases that is exactly what happens as there is no policing of private indiciduals at the moment in the UK, but there is in the rest of EU. This will change in the future to include active policing here, and thus the standard of import will have to change!