If your destination is directly to windward, how much more time to allow...

Babylon said:
Have you had a cup of tea yet?

Maybe you were tired or a bit tipsy or irritated with life generally when you typed this last reply last night, but your post is lazy, unnecessarily rude and untrue.

If you trouble yourself to actually read Post # 8 (my first chance to reply after half a dozen peeps, including yourself, had thought it an interesting enough thread) you will see that I REPLIED IN FULL DETAIL TO YOUR QUESTION!

So, if questions about actual sailing are too "daft" to raise on a sailing forum, what do you think IS a good question to ask?
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A pompous and arrogant reply from you.
The question "about actual sailing" which you posted was an elementary evening class question which has been covered on here many times.
The fact that you asked the question without the necessary information to provide an answer suggests that you didn't even understand the question or how to pose it properly. No disgrace in that but it's probably why someone asked if you want us to prepare your passage plan for you.
 
ArthurJStoatfondler said:
The fact that you asked the question without the necessary information to provide an answer suggests that you didn't even understand the question or how to pose it properly.
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It was a perfectly reasonable question, and one which produced some interesting answers. I see no justification for your snide and bitchy responses.
 
As a motorboater with no sailing knowledge I have found this interesting, there seems to be a fair bit of thinking involved in making progress (if 2-3 knots can be called progress!) sailing. Not sure if that is a good thing though! Also answers why there is a large number of sailing boats actually being motor boats when you see them.
 
gordmac said:
As a motorboater with no sailing knowledge I have found this interesting, there seems to be a fair bit of thinking involved in making progress (if 2-3 knots can be called progress!) sailing. Not sure if that is a good thing though! Also answers why there is a large number of sailing boats actually being motor boats when you see them.
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It is interesting, isn't it? It's all about time. Modern white, grp, sailing boats always seem to be sailing to windward - the old adage being that the wind always seems to coming from the direction you want to sail to. If you're racing then you have to go where you have to go, and that includes sailing upwind as quickly as possible. Cruising yachts don't have to sail that way if they don't want to but, usually because they decided their route days or even weeks before, they still seem intent on clawing their way upwind to stick to their plan, which is why you see so many of them motor sailing. It rather defeats the object of having a sailing boat.
In bygone days owners who were cruising would go wherever the wind took them with the wind on the beam or astern and, if the wind changed, they changed their plans accordingly. I've owned many boats over the years including Hillyards; beautifully built heavy wooden long keel sailing yachts. David Hillyard, the builder of Hillyard yachts, was asked once why his boats are so useless at sailing upwind, which they are, pointing perhaps 45 degrees away from the wind, if you're lucky. He famously replied that he didn't design his boats to point well upwind because gentlemen never sail upwind.
It's all about time, as I said. People don't seem to have time to go with the wind any more.
 
gordmac said:
As a motorboater with no sailing knowledge I have found this interesting, there seems to be a fair bit of thinking involved in making progress (if 2-3 knots can be called progress!) sailing. Not sure if that is a good thing though! Also answers why there is a large number of sailing boats actually being motor boats when you see them.
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Y'know if it was all about getting from point A to B as quickly as possible, then motoring makes sense. Frankly though, plane, train or automobile are faster and more reliable. The reason to sail, is for the journey, not the destination. Occasionally even we sailboaters impose time constraints or other restrictions on ourselves, and Mother Nature refuses to accommodate us - that is why we have and use our engines. But for all the other times, it's just about the enjoyment of being out on the water. I'm no treehugger, but I do get some satisfaction from being propelled for free; most of all, when there's nowt 'tween you and the horizon, and the only sounds are aquatic animals and the occasional wave slap against the hull, far away from the noise and pollution of civilization - that's the truest way to enjoy the beauty of the ocean. I don't know why motorboaters don't use parasails/kites now and then.
 
I must be the odd one out.
Provided it is not too rough & i am not sailing with 2 reefs & the boat is not on its ear I quite enjoy sailing to windward
I set my aeries steering, trim the sails for max speed then settle in the corner of the cockpit with a drink & a sandwich etc & just enjoy the ride
Mind you my boat will comfortably sail at 6 knots & point higher than a lot of yachts so i do have a wry smile when I pass a larger fully crewed yacht
 
Cruiser2B said:
Y'know if it was all about getting from point A to B as quickly as possible, then motoring makes sense. Frankly though, plane, train or automobile are faster and more reliable. The reason to sail, is for the journey, not the destination. Occasionally even we sailboaters impose time constraints or other restrictions on ourselves, and Mother Nature refuses to accommodate us - that is why we have and use our engines. But for all the other times, it's just about the enjoyment of being out on the water. I'm no treehugger, but I do get some satisfaction from being propelled for free; most of all, when there's nowt 'tween you and the horizon, and the only sounds are aquatic animals and the occasional wave slap against the hull, far away from the noise and pollution of civilization - that's the truest way to enjoy the beauty of the ocean. I don't know why motorboaters don't use parasails/kites now and then.
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For me at least it is about being on the water, nothing to do with A to B as quickly as possible. I do a lot of pottering about at 6-7 knots but I can do that in whatever direction I want to so I can just nip over somewhere for a look if I feel like it. Not sure about using the engine occasionally though, I see am awful lot of naked masts out there!
 
gordmac said:
As a motorboater with no sailing knowledge I have found this interesting, there seems to be a fair bit of thinking involved in making progress (if 2-3 knots can be called progress!) sailing.
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Yes - that is why we love it :)

Always enough to keep you occupied without ever getting to the stage of being busy (usually) - makes for a very relaxing time.
 
The old rule, back in the Dawn of Time when I started sailing on boats with cotton sails and hemp halyards, was, "twice the distance and three times the time".

This simple rule comes from the same stable as the other "old rules" - that "a cruising yacht will cover 100 miles in 24 hours on average, more or less regardless of size between say 25ft and 45ft". ,the Rule of Twelths and the rule that one gallon of fresh water per man per day is about right.

Much easier to keep these simple rules in your heard that bothering yourself with calculations.
 
A couple of years ago we were motoring up Southampton Water against a NW ly 4-5, having blown the roller furling fitting at the top of the mast. Both sails down we struggled to get ahead of a similar yacht that was short tacking. Admittedly that was with the old 2 bladed fixed prop making 5 kts. Similarly we have often kept up with and sometimes even overtaken yachts motoring into the wind and sea in the western Solent.
Interestingly, we went to Cherbourg on Friday night in a mostly S'ly 4 ! When we were sailing our average vmg was about 4 kts. When the wind died to nothing we motored at 5.5 kts.(For economy and noise-she will do 7.5 !).
So in my opinion there is very little to be gained by motoring into the wind and sea. As other posters have pointed out, it's the journey that makes it fun !
Chris
 
gordmac said:
As a motorboater with no sailing knowledge I have found this interesting, there seems to be a fair bit of thinking involved in making progress (if 2-3 knots can be called progress!) sailing. Not sure if that is a good thing though! Also answers why there is a large number of sailing boats actually being motor boats when you see them.
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As others have said, it's all about having the time (although as has also been pointed out the actual time difference between beating under sail and motoring to windward is not huge). There's something very satisfying about using the power of the wind to propel the boat to windward. And of course it's relatively quiet and has little or no incremental cost.
 
Babylon said:
1. If you're under sail and will be tacking?
2. If you're motor-sailing as close as you can to the wind but will still have to tack eventually?

Assume no tide.
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Aren't we over-complicating this? Root 2 is 1.41, so add 41%.

If the destination's dead upwind and you'd do x knots at 45 degrees (true not apparent) to it on either beat, you're sailing two units at 90 degrees to each other where the hypotenuse is the line from start to finish. Which is root 2 of each tack. The two units you're going to have to sail divided by the root two units as the fish swims happens to be root two, so add 40% to whatever time you'd have taken to cover the distance on a beat.

Q2 is slightly less assuming you're sailing tighter to the wind. In practice I doubt you would be and wouldn't plan on it.

As the OP asked, assume no tide.
 
BelleSerene said:
Aren't we over-complicating this? Root 2 is 1.41, so add 41%.

If the destination's dead upwind and you'd do x knots at 45 degrees (true not apparent) to it on either beat, you're sailing two units at 90 degrees to each other where the hypotenuse is the line from start to finish. Which is root 2 of each tack. The two units you're going to have to sail divided by the root two units as the fish swims happens to be root two, so add 40% to whatever time you'd have taken to cover the distance on a beat...
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I think this is over optimistic. I surmise that this is because (i) the boat goes a bit slower when close-hauled than when reaching, (ii) the waves are taken at an angle which slows one down more than if from the beam or stern, and (iii) if the wind is reasonably strong (>=F5) and has been blowing for any time, (>12hrs) there is often an appreciable surface current down-wave which maybe subtracts a further 1/2 knot. An additional factor which may or may not apply to the OP is that upwind I can steer much better than can the autopilot but, despite this, on a longer passage of some hours I let the autopilot do the work, with associated drop in speed or pointing.

I have a considerable amount of empirical evidence to call on. We rather frequently go to the Isles of Scilly from my home berth in Falmouth. The best times to go are when there is some good weather forecast, which is often when there's high pressure building. This often means an easterly, which will be building in strength over a few days. So we tend to have to return in E 5-6. It's 42 miles from Hats to Lizard, dead upwind, and 20 on a reach from Lizard to an anchorage at, say St. Just, making 62 miles in all. Going to the Scillies in the early days of the anti-cyclone (F3-4 perhaps) it's a 10 hour trip (average 6kts), coming back against an E 5-6 takes 17 hours, of which 14 or a bit more is the time to do the 42 miles dead upwind. This makes it 42/14 = 3kts. The reason I take care to be accurate about this is that it's essential to make the tidal gate at Lizard, but I want to linger in Scilly as long as possible!

So for offshore passage planning I allow 6 to 6.5kts on average, but only 3 - 3.5 kts for legs dead upwind. Which isn't to say I can't do 7.5kts close-hauled in sheltered water when hand-steering, it's just that these conditions don't often seem to hold on a real passage.
 
jdc said:
I think this is over optimistic. I surmise that this is because (i) the boat goes a bit slower when close-hauled than when reaching, (ii) the waves are taken at an angle which slows one down more than if from the beam or stern, and (iii) if the wind is reasonably strong (>=F5) and has been blowing for any time, (>12hrs) there is often an appreciable surface current down-wave which maybe subtracts a further 1/2 knot. An additional factor which may or may not apply to the OP is that upwind I can steer much better than can the autopilot but, despite this, on a longer passage of some hours I let the autopilot do the work, with associated drop in speed or pointing.

I have a considerable amount of empirical evidence to call on. We rather frequently go to the Isles of Scilly from my home berth in Falmouth. The best times to go are when there is some good weather forecast, which is often when there's high pressure building. This often means an easterly, which will be building in strength over a few days. So we tend to have to return in E 5-6. It's 42 miles from Hats to Lizard, dead upwind, and 20 on a reach from Lizard to an anchorage at, say St. Just, making 62 miles in all. Going to the Scillies in the early days of the anti-cyclone (F3-4 perhaps) it's a 10 hour trip (average 6kts), coming back against an E 5-6 takes 17 hours, of which 14 or a bit more is the time to do the 42 miles dead upwind. This makes it 42/14 = 3kts. The reason I take care to be accurate about this is that it's essential to make the tidal gate at Lizard, but I want to linger in Scilly as long as possible!

So for offshore passage planning I allow 6 to 6.5kts on average, but only 3 - 3.5 kts for legs dead upwind. Which isn't to say I can't do 7.5kts close-hauled in sheltered water when hand-steering, it's just that these conditions don't often seem to hold on a real passage.
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All very sensible. Thanks!
 
Minn said:
Yes, my apologies for my antique terminology!
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No apology needed! I find the older terminologies fascinating, very revealing.

And regional differences too. For example, I recall the first time I went into Fowey: chap there said the tide was 'still making'.
 
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