If I lived in France, say, and wanted a skipper's 'licence' how would I do it?

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Babylon

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Just wondering how Frenchies, Germans, Poles, Dutchmen, etc get their training and what minimum standards they have to achieve before they're licenced to skipper a small yacht.

Do they have any equivalents to the RYA, and/or what bureaucracy do they have to surmount?
 
No idea about Frenchies, but Germans have an awfully complicated set of rules that differs for most lakes, rivers and coastal areas as well as between power and sail.

In the simplest case, if you were to stay clear of rivers, canals and lakes (not easy, as many destinations are upriver with heavy cargo traffic, which is the important criteria) and your small yacht had an engine of no more than 15 HP, you would technically not require a license, however this seems to be quite frowned upon.

If your small yacht has an engine of more than 15 HP, you must have the Sportbootführerschein See (SBS), despite this being a powerboat license.

If your small yacht is equipped with a VHF radio (including handheld), you must have the Funkzeugnis SRC (Short Range Certificate - same as RYA one).

If your small yacht has parachute flares on board, you must also have the Pyroschein (safe handling and use of pyrotechnics).

If you do anything commercial with your boat, wish to carry passengers or perform training aboard, then it gets complicated ;-)
 
I think the answer depends upon the registry of the boat.
It is probably quite leagle. To be British and to live in France with a British registered boat. Which you can skipper so long as you comply with British requirements.

I would suspect if you wish to own and or skipper a French boat in France you will need to comply with French requirements.
Perhaps an RYA issued ICC will do the trick. You would need to check with French authorities.

Failing that go take a course at a French sailing school. I suspect this would be what the locals do. In France, Germany, Holland, Poland and pretty much anywhere else in Europe.:)
 
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Don't need a ticket in France if a sailing boat, but if on rivers or canals an ICC. If a motor boat over 6hp then yes. Several local places advertise courses for the Permis moteur.
As for the regs regarding equipement on boats (and the yearly tax) quite a lot flag out to Belgium or even use a SSR. as the regs are less onerous.

To add: Doesn't matter if your sailing boat engine is over 6hp, still no licence needed.
 
Is this the only reason for staying in Europe ? That we would have a shared system of permits for size and type of boats, and areas we can sail them in ? And with a legally-enforceable, common, syllabus ?

I'm out.
 
Uricanejack said:
I think the answer depends upon the registry of the boat.
It is probably quite leagle. To be British and to live in France with a British registered boat. Which you can skipper so long as you comply with British requirements.

I would suspect if you wish to own and or skipper a French boat in France you will need to comply with French requirements.
Perhaps an RYA issued ICC will do the trick. You would need to check with French authorities.

Failing that go take a course at a French sailing school. I suspect this would be what the locals do. In France, Germany, Holland, Poland and pretty much anywhere else in Europe.:)
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Registry is only relevant for non-territorial waters; on rivers and canals national regulations trump International ones. It's the same in the UK; you need a BSS certificate for a boat on inland waters, but not on the sea.
 
Thanks, all useful stuff, but I should have phrased my original question better.

What I'm interested in - hypothetically - is this: if an adult French (or any other European) person from a non-sailing background decided to learn how to sail with the intention of eventually buying a yacht and using it to cruise in their own waters and beyond, where would he/she start?

Is Glenans the equivalent of the RYA, or is it just one out of many French sailing schools/organisations?

Do the French (or other European) training organisations use a similar structured ladder as the RYA?

Etc.
 
A couple of years ago I looked into the qualifications needed for sailing in Germany, because I was going on holiday to Bodensee (Lake Constance). As Yngmar observed, the German licensing requirements are quite onerous and, even if you haver got the usual licences referred to in post #2, you still need to take an additional theory test for sailing on the lake. I think it is mostly about looking after the environment - given that the water stays in Lake Constance for a very long time - but, unfortunately, it appeared you could only do it in German, which was a non-starter for me.

http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/sailing.html
 
Babylon said:
Thanks, all useful stuff, but I should have phrased my original question better.

What I'm interested in - hypothetically - is this: if an adult French (or any other European) person from a non-sailing background decided to learn how to sail with the intention of eventually buying a yacht and using it to cruise in their own waters and beyond, where would he/she start?

Is Glenans the equivalent of the RYA, or is it just one out of many French sailing schools/organisations?

Do the French (or other European) training organisations use a similar structured ladder as the RYA?

Etc.
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As already stated there is no requirement for any qualifications for a sailing boat, but there are plenty of sailing schools so that you can learn.

The RYA voluntary scheme is peculiar to the UK, and can also be used as the basis for a professional qualification as it is derived from the MCA requirements.

In a sense a common "certificate" already exists in the form of the UN sponsored ICC, which originally derived from the requirements of CEVNI which controls much of the European inland waterways. However, this is very basic and variably recognised. In many countries it is issued on the basis of an already existing national qualification, although the RYA also offer a freestanding assessment.

Other countries such as Spain, Italy and Portugal do indeed have a compulsory state licencing system and they do form a ladder in the sense that categories are limited to areas of operation and types of boat. So the further you want to go offshore, the bigger the boat, the more onerous the requirements. Not surprising, then that many citizens of those states try to register their boats in other states, particularly the UK to avoid these requirements.

As you probably already know there are no restrictions on you using your boat in France, nor on using a French registered yacht unless you go into the inland waterways system.
 
Babylon said:
Thanks, all useful stuff, but I should have phrased my original question better.

What I'm interested in - hypothetically - is this: if an adult French (or any other European) person from a non-sailing background decided to learn how to sail with the intention of eventually buying a yacht and using it to cruise in their own waters and beyond, where would he/she start?

Is Glenans the equivalent of the RYA, or is it just one out of many French sailing schools/organisations?

Do the French (or other European) training organisations use a similar structured ladder as the RYA?

Etc.
Click to expand...

Perhaps try and get involved in a local French sailing club first by offering yourself up as unskilled crew. You will inevitably make some useful contacts and get further information that way. Alternatively, go on a RYA registered competent crew course as a way of seeing whether sailing/boating is for you. You could always then do a tidal Day Skipper course, join the RYA and convert it to an ICC.
 
shan said:
Perhaps try and get involved in a local French sailing club first by offering yourself up as unskilled crew. You will inevitably make some useful contacts and get further information that way. Alternatively, go on a RYA registered competent crew course as a way of seeing whether sailing/boating is for you. You could always then do a tidal Day Skipper course, join the RYA and convert it to an ICC.
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Think you will find the OP is a very experienced sailor and is just curious about other countries.
 
I worked in Germany for a time and went sailing with friends and work colleagues on both lakes and offshore.

I have Yachtmaster Offshore and my impression of the various German qualifications is that they are much less rigorous and more desk based than their equivalent RYA.

Certainly, offshore they are far inferior. I was sailing down the channel (Dutch delta region to the IOW) with a German and. although having all the 'various bits of paper' (theoretically equivalent to Yachtmaster) he was sorely lacking in practical ability.
 
Minchsailor said:
although having all the 'various bits of paper' (theoretically equivalent to Yachtmaster) he was sorely lacking in practical ability.
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Similar experience with charterers in the Med. Having the two or three bits of official paper does not ensure competence.
 
Angele said:
A couple of years ago I looked into the qualifications needed for sailing in Germany, because I was going on holiday to Bodensee (Lake Constance). As Yngmar observed, the German licensing requirements are quite onerous and, even if you haver got the usual licences referred to in post #2, you still need to take an additional theory test for sailing on the lake. I think it is mostly about looking after the environment - given that the water stays in Lake Constance for a very long time - but, unfortunately, it appeared you could only do it in German, which was a non-starter for me.

http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/sailing.html
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The Bodensee - Lake of Constance - of course, borders three countries, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. All three have similar licensing rules and, having a common language, use the same training syllabus. One exception is that Switzerland only needs a license (Segelscheine - Segelschiff Kat. D) for a sailing boat with greater than 15m² total sail area, but for the Bodensee the German limit of 12m² applies.

Although Switzerland borders no sea (although its ship registration port, Basel, is navigable via the Rhine from the North Sea at Rotterdam), it issues a seagoing license (Hochseeschein, or B-Schein) for Swiss nationals that it advertises as internationally equivalent to an ICC. To study and be examined for that a Category D license (D-Schein) is required plus proof of time at sea as crew of no less than 18 days and having covered at least 1000 nm within 6 years.

I used to rent a soling on Thunersee without a license (not sure if that fits the <15 m² area but I knew the sailing-school manager).

Edit:
Just checked, the Soling sail area is 23.7 m², so my friend, as I suspected, was stretching the rules somewhat.


.
 
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Barnac1e said:
Although Switzerland borders no sea (although its ship registration port, Basel, is navigable via the Rhine from the North Sea at Rotterdam), it issues a seagoing license (Hochseeschein, or B-Schein) for Swiss nationals that it advertises as internationally equivalent to an ICC. To study and be examined for that a Category D license (D-Schein) is required plus proof of time at sea as crew of no less than 18 days and having covered at least 1000 nm within 6 years.
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Sounds rather more substantial than the ICC! My parents (with no prior paperwork) did theirs in a morning.

Pete
 
prv said:
Sounds rather more substantial than the ICC! My parents (with no prior paperwork) did theirs in a morning.

Pete
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Ah, but it's a 'Swiss Quality' ICC. :encouragement:

I had read long ago that the intention was to make it internationally recognised as the ICC is, so your comment had me searching. A number of Swiss sailing schools have the identical wording of :
"Der nun amtliche Hochseeausweis ist gleichzeitig „International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft“. "(The present official seagoing license is the same as "...")​
but I could not trace the origin of that wording and there is nothing to that effect on the official syllabus published by the Swiss government Landesrecht site of Das Schweizerische Seeschifffahrtsamt (The Swiss Shipping Department) HERE.

You are, of course, correct; there is no comparison with the UK ICC (I have one myself) and the Swiss Hochseeschein syllabus.
 
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