If Cornish Crabbers built a schooner...

[Greenheart]

...I'd want one, more than anything else in this world.

I wonder what dimensions she'd be? And what compromises the increased size might require (or what possibilities it might permit) in the styling and sail handling.

I'd like to imagine their schooner would be perhaps 60ft LOA, 48ft on deck, 37ft on the waterline, 12ft 6in beam...perhaps 5ft draft with the board up, and 10ft down?

Given that bigger boats seem to be more profitable to build than little ones these days (not that that's a good thing), I wonder if the gentlemen in charge at CC ever contemplated a majestic flagship for their characterful line-up.

I expect I've suggested this before; apologies if I bore.

 

[Tranona]

No need to wait for Crabber - which will never happen. Nigel Irens has been designer just such boats for a long time. look at fusionschooner.blogspot.co.uk as an example

 

[Greenheart]

...will never happen.

Hmm, I began the thread with an 'If', so I accept it's not likely - but I was hoping others here might share my taste for the CC styling, and would likewise be interested in the same thing on a bigger scale.

I'm interested in the Irens design, though it's a bit high-aspect to match the Cornish style.

Umm...why couldn't a Crabbers schooner happen? Undoubtedly it would be a niche product, but in a sea of AWBs, all Cornish Crabbers are deliberately traditional, not avant garde in style - that's their appeal. Nor are they cheap...

...so if there is a market for the fairly labour-intensive sailing experience and limited-hull volume of the 30-footer, wouldn't the weathier enthusiast of those characteristics, enjoy a substantially bigger, showier version, for all the same reasons?

 

[Tranona]

Their attempts to move any bigger than their current range have failed in the past, although the 30 Pilot seems to have made a comeback recently.

Plenty of opportunity for the wealthy enthusiast to get a bigger Crabber style boat as the rash of recent builds of pilot cutter inspired boats (often designed by Nigel) shows.
Schooners were never popular on this side of the pond as working boats, unlike the eastern seaboard of N America. Alden and Hereshoff in particular designed and built many yachts derived from working boat lines in the first 30 years of last century and there are plenty of these still around (plus a few newer builds) to satisfy the market.

 

[JumbleDuck]

...I'd want one, more than anything else in this world.

I wonder what dimensions she'd be?

She'd have fake tongue and groove planking on bulkheads, be painted pastel blues inside and cost roughly the same as medium size house in Basingstoke, anchor and sails extra.

 

[FWB]

It would be more expensive than the real thing, as per all CC boats.
As fo CC styling, the Crabber Mk 1 , Crabber 22, Pilot Cutter and the original Shrimper look good but they've hit rock bottom with the ugly 26.

 

[Greenheart]

Dear me! I suppose I was asking for trouble, promoting the idea of pastiche on the classics & wooden forum.

One July years ago, SWMBO and I took a 3a.m. cheapskate ferry to Cowes...arriving pre-dawn on the island with a carload of camping kit, we parked up at Sandown. SWMBO snoozed in the car while I took a long walk on the beach. In pleasurably dreamy mood as dawn broke, I pictured a smallish gaff schooner anchored in the bay, and despite all the 'traditional' inefficiencies and inconveniences, and the non-standard costs and cramped accommodation, I've never advanced much from the idea that that would be my favourite boat.

But in all honesty I wouldn't want a 50ft gaff schooner in wood, because the prospect of maintaining any wooden yacht, daunts me. So seeking-out such a schooner in New England (joyous though the sojourn itself would doubtless be), isn't likely to yield what I'd want to own.

Whereas, a GRP hull in the very same style, without any of the innumerable ineradicable imperfections that wood necessarily brings...yes, that'd be top of my wish-list.

I know there are very, very pretty slightly smaller, elderly GRP hulls, like the Rhodes Pearson 41... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2065

...admittedly we're a long way from Crabbers' gaffs and centreplates there...but a bigger GRP hull, say 50ft o/d, with all the character of gaff schooner rig above it and centreplate convenience below, strikes me as a marvellously elegant form which would attract admiration and interest wherever she went...

...and (accepting that the appeal of owning such a characterful yacht may be marginal, relative to the appetite for AWB simplicity) I can't see why there'd be a cut-off in scale, such that a very popular 30-footer can exhibit the style (and disadvantages) of traditional rig, but the same characteristics don't/won't appeal to people wanting a 45 or 50-footer.

So I wonder if Tranona is right that there are enough surviving oldies around to satisfy the market. If Cornish Crabbers had not been building hundreds of gaffers for decades, is it likely that all those customers would instead have each sought out (and toiled to repair and maintain) an old woody, just to satisfy their taste for trad character? I doubt it.

I'm sorry to learn that recent CC boats aren't as classy as the earlier ones - or as I believe the concept still is.

 

[FWB]

THe Heard boats, 28, 25, 23 and Toshers have GRP hulls with wood fit out. The Crabber Mk1 had the same.
Wood without tears I call it

 

[Greenheart]

Okay, I take it back...Nigel Irens really does draw what I like...

...wonder if he'd make me one in fibreglass.




And now, some largely unrelated, gratuitous gorgeousness:

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

put the copy of ' Peter Duck ' down and back away slowly, no sudden moves...

There used to be a lovely schooner around 50-60' I ogled endlessly at St Helier, called ' Rights Of Man ' - I thought I saw her at Lymington recently under another name but was probably dreaming - will try to find pics.

 

[Greenheart]

...put the copy of ' Peter Duck ' down and back away slowly, no sudden moves...

There used to be a lovely schooner around 50-60'...called 'Rights Of Man'...

Thanks Andy, but I wish you hadn't mentioned Peter Duck, my copy's in France.

Rights of Man was the ship in Billy Budd. Are you sure you don't mean the schooner Bill of Rights? That's what Google suggested instead. Quite a lot bigger than the schooners I was thinking of.

 

[doug748]

Problem with a plastic gaffer is that everyone take the rise out of you.
You don't quite fit in the Classic boat scene and there is nothing worse then being pitied by someone who thinks you ought to have a butler's pantry between your aft cabins.

They made a lot of these over a 20 year period:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

That would suit. Not with a schooner rig though.

 

[Tranona]

A boat that would suit you is Aunt Sara Of Cohasset, built in Boston in 1929 to designs by Sam Crocker. A 35' clipper bow gaff schooner. Good description in Maurice Griffiths book Little Ships and Shoal waters. MG loved traditional style boats, but was very conscious of their shortcomings as yachts. He sailed this boat on a visit to the US in 1936 and describes his experience, and those of the owner.

Much as he admired the look and the concept he admitted he would not build it in the UK because "we have to do too much beating to windward around the English coasts for a rig like this". The owner was pleased he had specified a powerful engine!

Rigs and hull shapes of working boats evolve to suit local conditions and the shallow hulled, wide beamed schooner rigged boats were popular in NE seaboard of N America, mainly for fishing because most of the journeys to and from the fishing grounds were reaches either way and the coastal waters are littered with reefs and shallow inlets. The hull form has very good carrying capacity for fishing off shore, but fishing is carried out with small dorys rather than from the parent boat. Very good description and analysis of schooner types in the book on John Alden.

In the UK the main influences on working boat design were fishing boats and pilot boats which required good windward performance, on the west coast deep draft and east shallow. You can clearly see the different requirements in local hulls and rigs.

The philosophy behind the Irens designs is to retain the basic East Coast (US) hull form but marry it to an updated schooner rig taking advantage of modern materials and sail handling. Will never be a big enough market to justify making GRP moulds and the hull form lends itself to modern wood epoxy construction as in the build I referred to earlier. For a custom build this is similar cost to GRP and has the advantage (apart from the aesthetics) that it can be built in places where labour costs are low.

 

[Greenheart]

That's most interesting and very well-reasoned Mr T. Possibly I'll even stop going on about wanting a schooner, now.

Actually, that Rhodes Pearson 41 yawl took my mind off anything else for quite a while, earlier.

They made a lot of these over a 20 year period: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

Sorry Doug, couldn't make that link work. What's the boat? (I think the website's down - I can't get the Rhodes Pearson either, now.)

 

[doug748]

It's working for me now, just a link to SailBoatdata: Bermuda 40-1.

The later mark II and III had a sportier profile with taller rig and more ballast.

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks Doug, yes, you're right, that's a beauty, as all the Hinckleys are.

Sorry to make you all yawn. P'raps I'll yaw towards yawls instead. I remember the Cornish Yawl (24ft) but I've never seen one.

 

[Tranona]

prv (Pete) used to have one

 

[Greenheart]

Yup, I'm hoping he'll join in with his view of the ups and downs of CC ownership.

 

[Bajansailor]

I was googling just now, looking for some bits to contribute to this thread - and then I found the bits that I was thinking of in another schooner thread of Dan's from 5 years ago :
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?270690-I-d-sooner-schooner

Dan, I am sure that you will fall in love with a Cherubini 48 - ok, she is a Bermudian staysail schooner rather than gaff, but still gorgeous :
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4076

And here is one for sale :
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...68482/Jamestown/RI/United-States#.V_JYAIgrLcs

Re the photo of the black Grand Banks schooner posted above, is this Columbia?
http://www.maritime-executive.com/p...f-Columbia-Launched-91-Years-Later-2014-08-27

I agree totally with you re the Hinckley Bermuda 40 - she is an absolute classic, and they all have astounding asking prices when they do come on the second hand market.

I'm sure that you have come across Ed Burnett's lovely Amelia - his website used to have wonderful pdf drawings of all of his designs, but alas no more now, after he passed away last year.
Amelia was for sale recently though :
http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/details/300/Ed-Burnett-58-ft-Schooner-2007/yacht-for-sale/

 

[Greenheart]

Many thanks for those links, Bajan...although, my God! Have I really been droning on about these same fantasies for five years?

Yes, I have, and I've promptly forgotten all the wisdom I gained from you gents, such that within a month I mightn't ever have asked.

But I know where to look next time I wonder...I'll just put 'schooner' in the YBW search.

That Cherubini 48 is a very pretty yacht. I don't have even 5% of what the seller is asking, but I can enjoy salivating over the pictures.

And Burnett's gaffer Amelia...well, I don't think any words are necessary...