Ideal yacht for single-handing?

[Poignard]

A couple of days ago, in Newtown Creek, Solent I watched a junk-rigged (and presumably shoal draft) ketch sail into Clamekiln Lake, through the anchorage and on until it disappeared into the upper reaches before returning and making numerous short tacks until it was anchored in the main anchorage. All done under sail and single-handed and including quickly setting and reducing sail, in gusty conditions, without the skipper leaving the cockpit.

Even allowing for the obvious skill of her owner, this boat ("Dragonfly"?) seemed incredibly easy to handle.

In the past I have never thought of junk-rigged yachts as being worthy of serious consideration but this demonstration has changed my mind.

I took a few photos; if the owner of "Dragonfly" wants them - please PM me.

 

[sailorman]

A couple of days ago, in Newtown Creek, Solent I watched a junk-rigged (and presumably shoal draft) ketch sail into Clamekiln Lake, through the anchorage and on until it disappeared into the upper reaches before returning and making numerous short tacks until it was anchored in the main anchorage. All done under sail and single-handed and including quickly setting and reducing sail, in gusty conditions, without the skipper leaving the cockpit.

Even allowing for the obvious skill of her owner, this boat ("Dragonfly"?) seemed incredibly easy to handle.

In the past I have never thought of junk-rigged yachts as being worthy of serious consideration but this demonstration has changed my mind.

I took a few photos; if the owner of "Dragonfly" wants them - please PM me.

Post the photos here
http://www.yourboatpix.co.uk/index.php

 

[Woodlouse]

In the past I have never thought of junk-rigged yachts as being worthy of serious consideration but this demonstration has changed my mind.

The likes of Blondie Haslar and Bill King proved a long time ago the virtues of junk rig for single handing. Though I must say that I'd rather have a stayed mast rather than free standing.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I dont know that there is anything about junk rig that cant be just as easily achieved with a well set up bermudian. And it could be that the " multiple short tacks" come about because it wont point well to windward?

In fact, I would reckon that a Bermudian with a self tacking jib would be even handier.

 

[Woodlouse]

I dont know that there is anything about junk rig that cant be just as easily achieved with a well set up bermudian. And it could be that the " multiple short tacks" come about because it wont point well to windward?

In fact, I would reckon that a Bermudian with a self tacking jib would be even handier.

To be fair bermudan rigs have advanced no end since junk rig was favoured by the single handed long distance crowd. Advances like slab reefing, self tacking headsails and roller furlers have made handling much easier.

However, the junk rig is still far simpler, so those who sail short handed and short funded still find a use for it. It has also been said that the junk rig can point just as well as the bermudan, though I doubt this is only true when compared to an average cruising boat rather than a high spec upwind machine.

 

[actionoptics]

Junk in Newtown.

Dragonfly , a Freedom 30, belongs to a member of the Ashlett Sailing Club so I'll
tell him about your offer of photo's but he, Chris , is converting
more and more ASC members to junk rig - currently at least 10 boats
have been converted and shown how to sail by Chris.
It is a constant source of wonder to see him tacking out of our narrow creek
with such apparent ease and at times sitting across the cockpit
without changing sides. Something I could not do in my Burmudan
rigged boat. There is also a lot less noise. No flappy sails.
No winch grinding. No shouting at the crew.

 

[Blueboatman]

Ming Ming ( Google her) says it all really.. for beer money.

Having had a sistership that took me safely and swiftly to the States, all I wish to add is that you really can wake up when the ship needs reefing, do it with one eye closed and be back in yer warm bunk in less than 60 secs ( and I timed it, in me head, one hephalump. two etc..).
The fact that there is no rigging to howl at you ( or break) when the wind gets up to 20-30plus is IMO therapeutic and usefully supportive to the alert, conscientious solo sailor who actually wants to REST when offwatch !

 

[Poignard]

Dragonfly , a Freedom 30, belongs to a member of the Ashlett Sailing Club so I'll
tell him about your offer of photo's

Thanks but I have been in touch with him and passed on the photos.

I'm not thinking of giving up my Twister but if I was in the market for another boat I would give junk rig some serious consideration.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

A couple of days ago, in Newtown Creek, Solent I watched a junk-rigged (and presumably shoal draft) ketch sail into Clamekiln Lake, through the anchorage and on until it disappeared into the upper reaches before returning and making numerous short tacks until it was anchored in the main anchorage. All done under sail and single-handed and including quickly setting and reducing sail, in gusty conditions, without the skipper leaving the cockpit.

Even allowing for the obvious skill of her owner, this boat ("Dragonfly"?) seemed incredibly easy to handle.

In the past I have never thought of junk-rigged yachts as being worthy of serious consideration but this demonstration has changed my mind.

I took a few photos; if the owner of "Dragonfly" wants them - please PM me.

I sailed up the eastern Solent leaving a junk rigged boat absolutely standing a few years ago & would never consider such a limited sailing performance (my boat is no race horse).Look carefully at what you want out of sailing would be my advice........I really don't find sail changes & all that stuff such a burden & get great satisfaction out of doing it single handed.....I would'nt want to limit that experience!

 

[wooslehunter]

I had a brief sail in the US a few weeks ago in something called a Wyliecat 30. It had a single unstayed carbon mast with a wishbone supporting a single sail - I guess a copy of a freedom rig. Conditions were F3 max but it did seem to sail quite well. It was certainly very easy to handle, quickish & pointed quite well. Raising & lowering the sail was simplicity itself. We didn't need to reef but looking at the system, it seemed simple too. I'd go for freedom type rather than junk rigs.

It really depends on what you want to do. I sail mostly single handed in a Centaur - old, mostly working & most important, it's mine. It get's busy short tacking & I certainly screw up a few tacks from time to time. I'm sure I could do better but for the moment it suits fine for what I do.

Most important for single handing is a decent auto-pilot, preparation before doing anything & practice.

 

[chrisedwards]

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Thank you for your kind comments about my boat Dragonfly.The first twenty years of my sailing was in bermudan yachts and last twenty in junk. I first became interested in the rig when trading in trampers on the Yangtze and South China Seas in the 70's. Those days saw many junk rigs and the rivers were like busy roads. I used to watch them sail alongside and we would load them after which another opportunity to observe preparation. since then I have owned five junk rigged vessels and logged over fifteen hundred sails.

The responses to your first very kind earlier posting about my boat ("ideal boat for singlehanding") need addressing next. While I am sure they come from experienced seamen, I feel these sources are theorising. Your comment that it is an ideal rig for singlehanders is interesting. Blondie Hasler himself promoted it as an ideal rig for families. Then came the comment that a well set up bermudan boat could do the same. This is just not true. Imagine being able to drop sail in fractions of one second - a roller jib/main takes far too long. Imagine handling the halyard like an accelerator - heaving a panel up and down in a jiffy. Imagine sail handling whatevever the boats attitude to the wind. Imagine being able to let the sail out well for'd of the mast. Imagine being able to let the sail do nothing for extended periods - no flapping....I could go on! Then the unkindest comment - that lots of short tacking implies that the boat does not go well to windward. Well the channel was narrow,water shallow so centreboard up and the importance of keeping her full in close quarters situation - should these not be factored into the argument? As for the comment about not liking a mast without stays well the sail is a wing and the mast is a main spar just like an aeroplane. I do not think you would like to look out of you plane window and see wires supporting the wing. We have moved on.

In our little muddy creek there are no less than eight junk rigs:

1. 82 year old man-very experienced seaman with plastic knees - ease of handling
2. Family man who has sailed both Atlantic and Pacific Ocean - bermudan is too hard work. Wife does not like to see him stressed.
3. Fisherman - cheap way of getting to fishing grounds and shrouds of old bermudan rig were causing water to leak into his plywood decks.
4.Boy - sailing his own junk rig yacht to IOW since he was 12. Mother insisted it was junk rig.
5.Newcomer - read/researched avidly beforehand but was put off buying a junk rig at a club bar. He has one now and travels widely in only his third year of sailing.
6.Two observers - liked what they saw - other junk rigs performing in the creek.
8. Me - I like to sail. Thrilled by not using engine. Thrilled by the seemingly endless possibilities for manoeuvering. Thrilled by researching and applying the old methods of sailing.

Now - do junk rigs sail to windward? A rig dammed by a history of being installed on barges and by not having camber. Today is different. Many ways of getting camber. I have joints. An equivalent bermudan boat with new sails will beat me to windward in force two to force five. I am faster in light airs as my sails are held out by the battens which will create a gravity induced camber if I sit on one side. For beating off a lee shore in a gale the junk rig could save your life - a perfect setting small sail. I can beat an equivalent boat with older sails to windward and any boat if the winds are flukey and constant sail changes are necessary. Take your pick but bear in mind a junk sail never blows out and sets perfectly until it rots. How important is your pocket?

If I could respond to the latest posts. I sail singlehanded and do not need an autopilot with junk rig - the sail can be hoisted at any attitude to the wind and the boat will ie quietly under full sail all night - just lash the tiller.

Please do not condemn the rig as a limited performer on the basis of one experience. The latest generation of junk rigs are so much better.

As for enjoying sailhandling/singlehandling - thats fine as we all like different aspects of sailing however you can do far more singlehanding if the sails are easy to handle. You may never have to use your engine for a start - very satisfying. The range of situations you can sail in is extended.

This rig is subtle and sophisticated. It demands research and practice in order to give returns.

I could go on and on - fantastic visibility, no noise etc etc. One final point however is that women love it right from the start - why is this?

 

[dunedin]

With regard to the original question, for most weekend / coastal sailing its not the sailing that is the tricky bit single handed but the parking bit - eg getting onto an upwind ponton berth in a breeze
Hence the ideal singlehanded boat is perhaps more about close quarters manoevering - so perhaps rather than a junk rig (which may reduce sailing performance) one of the bow and stern water thrusters (which might also reduce performnce slightly) would create the ideal single handed yacht
Certainly no big worry about handling a bermudan sail plan with lazy jacks and furling genny

 

[snowleopard]

Another point not mentioned here is off-wind performance. You don't lose half your sail area by blanketing it behind another sail. You don't run the risk of an accidental gybe because, being unstayed, you can let it out 110° to be certain of not running by the lee. On a broad reach the sail is just as efficient as it is to windward while a conventional rig is stalled as soon as you bear away a little beyond the point the boom hits the shrouds.

And it doesn't have a few dozen steel components holding the mast up, a fatigue failure in any one of which can bring the whole lot down.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Another point not mentioned here is off-wind performance. You don't lose half your sail area by blanketing it behind another sail. You don't run the risk of an accidental gybe because, being unstayed, you can let it out 110° to be certain of not running by the lee. On a broad reach the sail is just as efficient as it is to windward while a conventional rig is stalled as soon as you bear away a little beyond the point the boom hits the shrouds.

And it doesn't have a few dozen steel components holding the mast up, a fatigue failure in any one of which can bring the whole lot down.

No but you do presumably have a bloody great pole coming down through the center of your cabin

 

[Babylon]

How is the junk-rig handled?

... You may never have to use your engine for a start - very satisfying. The range of situations you can sail in is extended.

This rig is subtle and sophisticated. It demands research and practice in order to give returns.

I could go on and on - fantastic visibility, no noise etc etc...

Chris

I found your response absolutely fascinating.

Aside from following Roger Taylor's accounts of sailing his junk-rigged Corribee Ming Ming, and knowing Tim McCloy - who's currently also crossing the Atlantic in the Jester Challenge in his junk-rigged folkboat China Blue - I've never either sailed in a junk-rigged boat nor have I ever studied the principles and practice of the rig.

Could you explain here in basic terms how the sail works and how its handled, or alternatively point us in the direction of any other resources?

Thanks
Babs

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Chris

I found your response absolutely fascinating.

Aside from following Roger Taylor's accounts of sailing his junk-rigged Corribee Ming Ming, and knowing Tim McCloy - who's currently also crossing the Atlantic in the Jester Challenge in his junk-rigged folkboat China Blue - I've never either sailed in a junk-rigged boat nor have I ever studied the principles and practice of the rig.

Could you explain here in basic terms how the sail works and how its handled, or alternatively point us in the direction of any other resources?

Thanks
Babs

I'm afraid never having to use your engine is a false claim,why should that be any different to a conventionally rigged boat?
I use my boat as a sailing boat as much as possible & have even left my mooring under sail.Sailed round the isle of Wight stopping off in several places & sailed back to my mooring all without ever starting the engine once but that is just not possible nowadays in places like Portsmouth where using an engine to get through the Harbour entrance is now mandatory (at least while the harbour militia are around)......I can see no reason why a junk rigged boat should give you magical property's that no other boat has.....& I am far from convinced that a junk rigged boat has any advantages except ease of use when you are old & crippled with arthritis.

PS:Sorry this is what I am disputing..... Originally Posted by chrisedwards View Post
... You may never have to use your engine for a start - very satisfying. The range of situations you can sail in is extended.

 

[Babylon]

I'm afraid never having to use your engine is a false claim,why should that be any different to a conventionally rigged boat?...PS:Sorry this is what I am disputing..... Originally Posted by chrisedwards View Post
... You may never have to use your engine for a start - very satisfying. The range of situations you can sail in is extended.

Yes, I understood that it was this aspect of Chris' post that you were disputing.

Nevertheless, for those interested, this is a photo of Tim aboard his junk-rigged folkboat China Blue at the start of the Jester Challenge in Plymouth: http://www.sailingphoto.ru/images/stories/sailingphoto/2010/Jester_Challenge_Start/seb_MG_2929.jpg

The full album of photos taken before and at the start, including two other junk-rigged boats (Roger Taylor's Mingming and Trevor Leek's Jester, also a modified folkboat), can be viewed here: http://www.sailingphoto.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=96

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Yes, I understood that it was this aspect of Chris' post that you were disputing.

Nevertheless, for those interested, this is a photo of Tim aboard his junk-rigged folkboat China Blue at the start of the Jester Challenge in Plymouth: http://www.sailingphoto.ru/images/stories/sailingphoto/2010/Jester_Challenge_Start/seb_MG_2929.jpg

The full album of photos taken before and at the start, including two other junk-rigged boats (Roger Taylor's Mingming and Trevor Leek's Jester, also a modified folkboat), can be viewed here: http://www.sailingphoto.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=96

I'm not saying they don't have their charm in the right place infact I'd love to have one of these in the Solent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzRB-VulWEw&playnext_from=TL&videos=zu6pRm5wylM
but for all other practical purposes naa.

 

[Slow_boat]

I'm begining to wonder if the ideal cruising boat is a junk rigged catamaran.......

 

[Poignard]

Time for a bit of thread drift

Conor O'Brien, the author of several books on sailing , and a circumnavigator before the war, came to the conclusion that for serious long distance sailing his ideal boat would have square sails and a powerful auxiliary engine.

He thought that square sail was best for off-wind work, which is what long-distance sailors mostly do, and there was no point in beating to windward, eg. to get into port or through a narrow channel, when you could do it more easily under power.