ICC Greece

[Tranona]

I imagine that the charter company's insurers like to stick their metaphorical oar in, too, in order to limit their risk...

Mike.

Surprisingly little to do with insurance. As you can see from the syllabus the ICC does little to show that somebody can handle a boat properly. It is all about having a piece of paper that satisfies the person holding the stamp that authorises the charter permit. Insurance on a charter boat is comparatively cheap as most of the damage is relatively minor and covered by the charter's deposit or his damage waiver insurance.

 

[prv]

As you can see from the syllabus the ICC does little to show that somebody can handle a boat properly

I'm not sure I agree with that. It demonstrates a basic competence to cast off, manoeuvre about, and tie up again. I have definitely seen flotilla boats whose crew were not up to this standard (but still had a fun holiday). Many absolutely would not moor up without the lead crew on the quayside guiding them in with hand signals - one day the lead crew were delayed, and the whole flotilla were jilling up and down outside the harbour waiting for them.

Pete

 

[mjcoon]

I'm not sure I agree with that. It demonstrates a basic competence to cast off, manoeuvre about, and tie up again. I have definitely seen flotilla boats whose crew were not up to this standard (but still had a fun holiday). Many absolutely would not moor up without the lead crew on the quayside guiding them in with hand signals - one day the lead crew were delayed, and the whole flotilla were jilling up and down outside the harbour waiting for them.

Pete

Well, of course, they were waiting to be told they had arrived at the right place (having followed each other in)!

To be fair, getting whole flotillas into little harbours often requires pre-negotiating with locals for space and slotting into a less-than-ideal corner that has been agreed. It's not the same as just parking a single yacht; it's a very pragmatic art...

Mike.

 

[prv]

Well, of course, they were waiting to be told they had arrived at the right place (having followed each other in)!

Not at all, they knew they were at the right place, they just didn't know how (or didn't have the confidence) to moor without ground control from the lead crew. Their hand signals, briefed on the first day, pretty much allowed them to remote control the yacht - not just "left a bit", "right a bit", but also "faster", "slower", "drop the anchor", "let out chain", "stop letting out chain", and "throw me the stern line".

We arrived later than most, as there'd been a nice breeze in the afternoon and we'd been having fun sailing - we called up to ask why everyone was hanging around outside. On hearing why, we went in and tied up - and then my mother stood in for the lead crew doing the guiding-in bit and got all the other boats in. The lead crew awarded her a special "taking our jobs" prize at the end of week prizegiving

Pete

 

[Tranona]

I'm not sure I agree with that. It demonstrates a basic competence to cast off, manoeuvre about, and tie up again. I have definitely seen flotilla boats whose crew were not up to this standard (but still had a fun holiday). Many absolutely would not moor up without the lead crew on the quayside guiding them in with hand signals - one day the lead crew were delayed, and the whole flotilla were jilling up and down outside the harbour waiting for them.

Pete

You can get an ICC doing a basic couple of hours test on a small cruiser - as I did. You can then charter a 50 footer. It is the usual problem, it is a very basic test and does not test the ability to moor 10 tons of boat backwards with a 20 knot crosswind.

At the other end of the spectrum you can get a German charterer who has the full German certification and still not be capable of handling the boat properly.

Given the huge range of abilities, size of the boats and sometimes crowded locations people cope quite well. The need for certification is driven by concerns about keeping some control over who charters boats, and as I pointed out complying with the law (even if it is badly drafted). If there is criticism it is about the variable enforcement - I won't bore you with the war stories of my 10 years or so of being involved in charter activities out there - but you learn to go with the flow.

 

[Sailfree]

For those who don't believe an ICC is needed in Greece etc ask LateSsail www.latesail.com. I don't know if Sunsail still do but they used to give charterers a certificate of competence even if they had no experience.

I am ICC and YM (Comm) but experienced the same with a company in Croatia. This company gave a photo ID of competence to all charters that satisfied the locals and looked official but was not a RYA ICC. After posting that info on here some years ago I was contacted by the RYA that monitor this site and was asked for further details. While I support and recommend the RYA scheme I do not support its compulsion. I declined to provide further info.

While against compulsion I would recommend all to complete a DS course. On a personal note I have signed many log books of people doing a 60+ml X channel as skipper but only if they performed fully as skipper including passage planning. I feel we should all try to improve other competence but just not by compulsion

 

[Tranona]

I am ICC and YM (Comm) but experienced the same with a company in Croatia. This company gave a photo ID of competence to all charters that satisfied the locals and looked official but was not a RYA ICC. After posting that info on here some years ago I was contacted by the RYA that monitor this site and was asked for further details. While I support and recommend the RYA scheme I do not support its compulsion. I declined to provide further info.

While against compulsion I would recommend all to complete a DS course. On a personal note I have signed many log books of people doing a 60+ml X channel as skipper but only if they performed fully as skipper including passage planning. I feel we should all try to improve other competence but just not by compulsion

Confused thinking here perhaps. The ICC is not an RYA qualification. It is issued under the authority of the UK government in accordance with UN Resolution 40. The front cover of the certificate clearly states that. It is not compulsory anywhere except in certain European inland waterways when endorsed to show that the holder has completed the test of knowledge of the CEVNI regulations.

There is a full description of the background and status on the RYA site explaining what it means and how it might be used.

There is nothing that stops anybody issuing a "certificate of competence" but only governments can issue one that complies with the UN resolution. Such certificates are issued in some countries by government bodies and in others by organisations (such as the RYA and the BSC in the UK) authorised by the government.

If another body is issuing a certificate purporting to be RYA then not unreasonably the RYA might want to take action. If, however, it does not claim to be issued by the RYA there is nothing they can do about it. If the Croation government wishes to accept it that is their affair, and given that their law allows local harbour masters to test for competence before issuing a charter licence in the absence of other recognised qualifications (including the ICC) it would not be surprising that locally issued certificates are acceptable.

 

[BurnitBlue]

ICC or not. Last year I thought the charterers were more considerate and competent than owner cruisers. I only witnessed one charter yacht that made a mess of anchoring.

I found in general that owner cruisers anchored closer together and often touched adjacent yachts. They were also deaf to complaints.

 

[Sybarite]

Confused thinking here perhaps. The ICC is not an RYA qualification. It is issued under the authority of the UK government in accordance with UN Resolution 40. The front cover of the certificate clearly states that. It is not compulsory anywhere except in certain European inland waterways when endorsed to show that the holder has completed the test of knowledge of the CEVNI regulations.

There is a full description of the background and status on the RYA site explaining what it means and how it might be used.

There is nothing that stops anybody issuing a "certificate of competence" but only governments can issue one that complies with the UN resolution. Such certificates are issued in some countries by government bodies and in others by organisations (such as the RYA and the BSC in the UK) authorised by the government.

If another body is issuing a certificate purporting to be RYA then not unreasonably the RYA might want to take action. If, however, it does not claim to be issued by the RYA there is nothing they can do about it. If the Croation government wishes to accept it that is their affair, and given that their law allows local harbour masters to test for competence before issuing a charter licence in the absence of other recognised qualifications (including the ICC) it would not be surprising that locally issued certificates are acceptable.

My understanding with respect to French inland waters is that the CEVNI is required but, by derogation, the ICC might be accepted but the authorities are not obliged to.

 

[prv]

If another body is issuing a certificate purporting to be RYA then not unreasonably the RYA might want to take action. If, however, it does not claim to be issued by the RYA there is nothing they can do about it. If the Croation government wishes to accept it that is their affair, and given that their law allows local harbour masters to test for competence before issuing a charter licence in the absence of other recognised qualifications (including the ICC) it would not be surprising that locally issued certificates are acceptable.

Agreed - but either way it's certainly within the RYA's remit to enquire about it, so as to be fully informed about practices abroad that may be relevant to their members.

Pete

 

[prv]

My understanding with respect to French inland waters is that the CEVNI is required but, by derogation, the ICC might be accepted but the authorities are not obliged to.

As far as I'm aware, the only way a UK national can have a CEVNI ticket is as an endorsement to an ICC.

The basic ICC wouldn't make much sense as an alternative to CEVNI, as they cover completely different things. ICC is how to drive the boat, CEVNI is understanding the rules and the roadsigns.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

My understanding with respect to French inland waters is that the CEVNI is required but, by derogation, the ICC might be accepted but the authorities are not obliged to.

Yes. The ICC is based on the CEVNI requirements so if you take the test in France or Germany, for example the level of competence for boat handling will be at least at the same level, but as with the DS in the UK will probably be higher than the minimum.

The whole idea of the ICC was/is to establish a minimum recognised standard for people who want to boat in different countries. There is clearly a long way to go before it achieves the level of recognition some would like. However for many people its value far outweighs the cost as it enables them to comply with local requirements such as when chartering or using the inland waterways that would be denied to them without it.

 

[tico]

Thanks to all.
SWMBO has now had further discussions with charter Cos.
Seems like the approach varies from one co will give you a 'certificate of competance' (NB NOT an ICC), one will do a 30 minute assessment at the location.
BUT
The Main one SUNSAIL... "IT'S THE LAW- YOU MUST HAVE AN ICC"..and would not be budged . talk about gold-plating things.
All this bears out the comments about how its really about satisfying the local port police that you are a competant person, which seems reasonable.

Guess who won't be getting our hard-earned cash this year?

 

[afs67]

Thanks to all.
SWMBO has now had further discussions with charter Cos.
Seems like the approach varies from one co will give you a 'certificate of competance' (NB NOT an ICC), one will do a 30 minute assessment at the location.
BUT
The Main one SUNSAIL... "IT'S THE LAW- YOU MUST HAVE AN ICC"..and would not be budged . talk about gold-plating things.
All this bears out the comments about how its really about satisfying the local port police that you are a competant person, which seems reasonable.

Guess who won't be getting our hard-earned cash this year?

If you're looking at Sunsail, even on a late deal you're talking about a fair amount of hard cash. Elsewhere you say you've previously done a couple of charters with them. You could try asking if they'll throw in an ICC assessment at P Solent before you go, as part of the deal. Admittedly there's the hassle of getting down to Portsmouth for what is usually a two hour test, mooring, anchoring, basic chartwork and MOB, but it's a two way deal. They get a satisfied customer - and a booking, you get an ICC valid for 5 years and less hassle on future charters. And given the number of boats standing idle in P Solent these days they should be able to do it at short notice. It's not so long ago that they were offering flotilla holidays to any one, subject to two people on board holding Comp Crew certs!

 

[prv]

It's not so long ago that they were offering flotilla holidays to any one, subject to two people on board holding Comp Crew certs!

When I was a teenager and we did a flotilla with them every year, none of us had any certificates whatsoever. OK, we had experience, but they also had an arrangement whereby complete beginners would spend a week at a beach club with one member of the family (invariably dad) doing three half-days of instruction on the day-boats, and the following week they'd move onto their yacht to go off on flotilla.

OK, some of the seamanship that resulted was "interesting", but there was never any real difficulty and everyone had a good time. With no tides, no hidden shallows, not much wind, and a lead crew on call to sort out any dramas, it's hard to go too far wrong.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

The issue is not about whether the potential charterer is competent or not, it is whether they can get the stamp from the Port police. Clearly Sunsail have decided that they do not want to take the risk of having somebody turn up without the certificate and not be able to take the boat out. Other operators may not face this problem so may be prepared to take bookings without certificates.

In my years there I met all scenarios from needing a charter company John Bull printed "certificate" to no evidence required to having to report to the main Port Police office in person with my ICC for inspection. All that in the same place at different times. Usually more "rigorous" early in the season as officers savour the opportunity to exercise their power - but get bored later in the season when they struggle to process the volume.

If you follow the trials and tribulations of people boating in Portugal and Turkey for example you will find exactly the same pattern of behaviour from officials, although the issues may be around light dues, safety inspections, crew lists, sewage disposal etc etc.

 

[tico]

The thing that really gets up my nose is that they dont say... we want you to have an ICC, but the way that they try to pass it off as 'LAW'

gold-plating

 

[Tranona]

The thing that really gets up my nose is that they dont say... we want you to have an ICC, but the way that they try to pass it off as 'LAW'

gold-plating

Strictly speaking it is the "LAW" - it is a legal requirement for the skipper of a Greek flagged yacht to be competent. As I pointed out earlier the problem with the law is that it is ill defined and poorly enforced, so if you ask an official in the morning what the law is he will tell you one thing, and different in the afternoon - and go down the coast 5 miles and you will get another answer altogether.

The trend recently has been that more Port police are asking for certificates, so not surprising that a big organisation like Sunsail will take a policy decision to insist on certificates, even if it loses them business. You can understand why Mrs Merkel and her friends has so much difficulty dealing with Greece, although her fellow German yachtsmen have no difficulty with the "law" as they need an official German qualification to be allowed to skipper a boat. They still often have difficulty parking them though!

 

[Uricanejack]

That's because you're looking at the CEVNI endorsement, not the ICC.

This is the UK syllabus for ICC:

OK, most of the nav stuff is probably superfluous for a Greek charter ("turn right at the next island" being more the form) and lights, shapes, and sound signals are unlikely to make an appearance, but other than that it seems like a reasonable list of things a skipper should be able to do to be considered basically competent.

Pete

Thanks helps to clear the mud. it looks like it is a basic day sailing equivelent for all boats.

Must admit I'm still a bit confused as to why its required and by who. I supose its due to RYA being vollentery and not Gov issued. I would have thought an RYA Day skipper would be acceptable by most charter outfits.
I thought looking at RYA website if you have a RYA cert you can get ICC on line but this is only the cannal transit cert endorsment.

If the RYA administer the ICC for the UK gov why dont they just include in the Day skipper.?

 

[Tranona]

Thanks helps to clear the mud. it looks like it is a basic day sailing equivelent for all boats.

Must admit I'm still a bit confused as to why its required and by who. I supose its due to RYA being vollentery and not Gov issued. I would have thought an RYA Day skipper would be acceptable by most charter outfits.
I thought looking at RYA website if you have a RYA cert you can get ICC on line but this is only the cannal transit cert endorsment.

If the RYA administer the ICC for the UK gov why dont they just include in the Day skipper.?

Suggest you read the explanation on the RYA site. The whole purpose of the ICC is to provide an internationally recognised certificate of a minimum level of competence. The RYA qualifications are recognised by some states and not others. The DS qualifies for the ICC and is included if you request it, but you can also get an ICC without getting an RYA qualification by taking a separate test based on the ICC requirements.

As said many times in this thread, the certificate is required by UK nationals who wish to use certain European inland waterways, in which case the holder needs to take an additional test covering the CEVNI regulations which gets an endorsement on the certificate to cover inland waterways.

The requirement to show it is determined by either the government of the coastal state where you are sailing, the registry of the boat you are skippering, or the owner of the boat (or his insurer). No different from the requirement to have a driving licence to drive a car in another country except that the requirement is not so universal or consistently enforced. The main area where it is enforced is in chartering a bareboat, but again not consistently hence the subject of this thread.