ICC cert. another EU Joke?

I expect i'm going to get slated but i think the ICC is worse than a waste of time it gives incompetent people the belief they know what they are doing, until this belief gets dispelled by the reality of the situations they find themselves in. Having a certificate that implies competence but doesn't require a competence to achieve is bonkers!
 
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I expect i'm going to get slated but i think the ICC is worse than a waste of time it gives incompetent people the belief they know what they are doing,

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I think that a reasonable statement, how many times do you read on these pages, I have done a Day Skipper 5 day course, and past, what boat should I buy?.

Like today you take 20 hours leasons with the driving school, pass the test and buy a car, and thats the first time they have driven solo.

We live in a time of doing enough to fill in boxes, and the answer to the question is yes or no. This I think results in all the Col Reg questions, people want a simple yes or no to a complex evaluation of a situation.

Brian
 
If what you say is true, then why is the industry standard entry ticket for driving a yacht commercially the YM Offshore and Ocean?
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1) I believe that 'even' a DS can be commercially endorsed.

2) An ICC cannot be used for commercial purposes, it is for recreational use only! It covers vessels <24m & up to 80gt, whereas a commercially endorsement YM can skipper vessels <24m & up to 200gt.

An ICC is only valid on British flagged vessels, so if your charter yacht is different, check local agreements.

The ICC 'test', is basically boat handling, but candidates still have to demonstrate they know the rest of the stuff & is very similar to the DS assessment. It has had a bad press in the past, because of ICC's being handed out in Spain endorsed 'up 24m vessels (Power)' , when the test was carried out in a small RIB.

Many of the commercial 'superyachts' are British flagged for a variety of reasons. British (RYA/MCA commercial endorsements) qualifications, can also ease foreign officialdoms attention. Commercial qualifications from other countries, particularly new EEC eastern european sources, sometimes have a reputation in the industry of having been obtained by means not compatible with any skill capability.
 
Surely the ICC is like the SSR. It's an easily obtained piece of paper that meets the requirements of foreign officials without too much hassle for us. When you consider that we in the UK are often on the tough end of EU regs, I think we should be applauded for these two pieces of paperwork.

Yes the ICC isn't up to much when it comes to proving the competency of the skipper, but remember we don't need anything to sail in UK waters. The only reason to dissaprove of the ICC is if you think we should go down the lines of compulsory training and licensing. But that's another thread altogether /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Joe,

Thank you for your observations. You will not be surprised to know that the chief examiner of the RYA sometimes reads these forums and if he hasn't seen your comments already I will make sure that they are brought to his attention.

Some of the things that you say ring true. For example I never test people on IRPCS using flash cards. This has embarrassed a few candidates who having learnt the flash cards off pat discover that they don't necessarily know the rules very well.

Regarding the exams - the shore based YM syllabus already equates to the sorts of exams that you did for your PPL. There are already separate areas for IRPCS, Nav etc. Not sure how one could make practical sailing a necessity before taking the theory. The advice is already in place that taking the theory without practical experience is not very clever. (Conversely, the bane of most sailing schools lives are people who turn up to do Day Skipper without any Nav theory. Its very trying for the instructor to try and teach nav theory at the same time as practical boat handling.)

Your comments about the practical aspects of yachting exams are all valid and we could happily discuss the best ways of achieving this over a beer. I know that the RYA will take the view that its a bit difficult to be too prescriptive as you can't know what weather you are going to get. I can tell you that the official guidelines are that you can examine 3 candidates in 24 hours IF ALL GOES WELL. If it isn't going well, you have to allow time for the candidate to have another go at things/get rid of nerves etc as appropriate. More than 3 isn't advised as the process can get repetitive.

I take your point about picking up a bucket and fender, but that test is often more about a demonstration of wind awareness, sailing ability and in particular the ability to sail slowly and under control up to the 'MOB' than it is about replicating what you might do in real life. I always talk to the candidate about the realities of picking up a real person in the water and what techniques are likely to be successful.

Finally, the number of crew on a boat during an exam is always potentially an issue. When I examine service people, there are always lots of fit young men and women on board, and sometimes candidates can appear to 'get away with sloppy boat handling' because of the strength of the crew. I have been know to take the crew away from iffy candidates and make them do some evolutions with only one or two crew member(s) to see if they really know their stuff or not.

I don't hold myself up to be some sort of super duper examiner, and I take your criticisms and points seriously. Hopefully all of us who go to see tries to learn all the time. As I have said before, the time that you think you are good at this sailing business, the sea will come and bite you in the backside. I also know that the whole system is constantly under review. It might not be perfect but it is admired and emulated the world over.
 
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And you don't comprehend what is feasible for the workforce to create by burying your head in a book.

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Hear! Hear!!!

My son is a fourth generation Engineer and I can see for myself the difference between him - who had exposure to actual projects since childhood - and the lecturers that he had who had graduated with me but were never in industry!!! .....not to mention most of his course mates.

How on earth one can learn how to handle a boat and tackle the hundred and one situations when things start to go wrong without spending time on board is beyond me.

Perhaps we should now start driving 'high tech' cars without taking a practical? Just doing the theory part should be enough!?!

I think not
 
I didn`t think my original moan would bring such a debate, and I appreciate the comments even those who question me, however, there obviously is a lot of consternation about the ICC, fwiw I think that a long standing member of your sailing club who is either an instructor or has high standards for sailing yachts and indeed has known you for at least 5 years, should be able to issue an ICC. This not a get out to take the exam but common sense perhaps. (but what do I know?)
 
Agree with the point of view that the ICC is basically a piece of paper to show someone in a uniform somewhere in Europe, and that basically RYA courses are a good thing and vastly superior to any government implimented scheme *BUT* why does the ICC issued from the RYA only last 5 years? £39 for non RYA members. Pay up or join. Now am I just being a little bit cynical here.....
 
fwiw I think that a long standing member of your sailing club who is either an instructor or has high standards for sailing yachts and indeed has known you for at least 5 years, should be able to issue an ICC.
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Great in theory & very properly British!

But, there are many longstanding members of sailing clubs, who have only worn out their elbows on the bar & joined when the only requirement, was to be known by another member & have declared what medal ribbons they possessed, never been in a boat smaller than the IOW ferry.

"and indeed has known you for at least 5 years, should be able to issue an ICC."

How does this recognise your sailing ability?

Whilst not all instructors are perfect, they hopefully will have some common standard they will assess too! The RYA system may not be perfect (even the Church has sinners), but at least it is a system.

By the way, if you are a RYA member, isuing of ICC's costs nothing, if you have satisfied the 'test' procedures.
 
John, Hi and thankyou for the informed reply.
It is really unfortunate that I have apparantly only seen the bad side of the rya training. Indeed, my partner Jayne is certified to CS level and feels she should not have been awarded such due to certain issues on the exam / assessment along with her confidece and abilities at the time. but thats another story lol.. I am sure too many grab it and go.. Jayne did comment but was patted on the head like a good little girl as though being female allowed lots more leniency.. she was NOT impressed.. but the cert enabled insurance cover for two of us across biscay without loading. She is also the type of person who learns rapidly by mistakes and knows here own competence. She now does delivery work and is considered very competent by customers and experienced sailors.

We were apx 140 Nautical miles from La Coruna in 2005 (October) during a biscay crossing. I had a small stroke effectively putting me out of the loop for the next 100 miles. Luckily I was with it enough to assist on the last 50 miles and entrance to Coruna, I couldnt stand up.. but could assist from a seated position from time to time.
We NEVER thought of calling for assistance, we make our own way and on our heads be it so to speak. She was absolutely superb in the situation. She told me afterwards that she had Tom Cunliffs YM handbook in one hand, and the SHIP Captains Medical guide opened at the 'burial at sea' pages lol.... a fine girl !!.. I think she also had all the insurance and pension details in the grab bag !!!..
So, along with lots of other input and experience, she DID learn something out of the quals.. but it is more a matter of knowing ones own limitations and overcoming situations. First thing she did was heave to for around 2 hours whilst she got her thoughts in order and made a plan.. we were in no immediate danger as far as the yacht was concerned, safe offshore. Medically she understands that a stroke is unlikely to be improved by intervention after many hours. If I snuffed it, I snuffed it.. resuce would be a long time in reality as far as reaching medical attention and as said, little could be done by then.
The point of all that ?..
It is down to attitude more than anything and a thorough acceptance of ones abilities, and the sense to evaluate and adapt within your own limitations. THAT is extremely difficult to assess in any formal exam situation.

It was also a relatively unique situation, and in some ways, a good thing. Most males do NOT allow the female to actually take proper command and make the decisions. Which is sad. Me included, I was as guilty as anyone on that point. But be gads I was way out, cos when the excrement hit the rotary oscillator the gal done good.
Her rya experience as said as one of, well, shes female, its ok, she will never sail seriously etc.. or certainly thats how she felt.
I wonder what many other crews would have done in the situation ?
The realites of sailing once away from a safe haven are far different to what many perceive and believe. How does one get that over in training, I dont know is the answer, apart from MORE realistic training and assessment.

2 years later health is starting to improve, we are hoping for the azores in June to spend a year or two over there. I will know better in a couple of weeks when I see my Neuro bod in the UK next monday...

So, yes, my views are coloured, my opinions can be harsh at times. But like lots here, I have been through bad times at sae.. It is often the bad times that make you stop, listen, think and adapt.. assess your own abilities, assess the abilities of the crew in general and as a whole part of the team. To many in this game, if you take away the so called 'skipper' you have nothing left and things go tits up big style.
I therefore DO have a sort of agenda on sail training especially for cruising sailors or those venturing away from their known environment.
I will admit wholeheartedly that I wish we had come across people like you. I may well have differing views.
Perhaps it is simply a 'quality control' issue.. ?.. in fact.. it appears to be exactly that.
The rya may well be advised to have a few 'undercover' staff to assess the assesors and trainers lol.. or adapt a controlled method of standardisation.

John, if we ever get chance to have a beer, its on me.

Excellent discussion. Thanks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Fireball, ( Rubbish ) eloquently argued! The fact is that the competencies required to be displayed for success in the ICC test are similar to the competencies that a Day Skipper would expect to achieve at the end of a five day course. The important point is that the ICC test is just that - no tuition. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
I think we have met!

We were apx 140 Nautical miles from La Coruna in 2005 (October) during a biscay crossing. I had a small stroke effectively putting me out of the loop for the next 100 miles. Luckily I was with it enough to assist on the last 50 miles and entrance to Coruna,
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I think we might have met!

Are you originally from the Scillies?

I remember a couple on a Seastream, who had been there all winter, who were of great help with local knowledge about fuel when I was in La Coruna at Easter 2005. I was in there on a UKSA boat, running a YM Ocean qualifying passage.

What a small world we live on.
 
Re: I think we have met!

Yep, thats us lol... from the Scillies. "Ruddles' Seastream 34 ketch... you probably mean 2006 though... not 05..

Nice to meet up again. !

it IS a small world.. but, we are located in a major crossing point for offshore traffic from the UK.. hope u guys are doing great!.. we may FINALLY move this year.. health permitting.

Joe, Jayne and a new addition (1.5 years) Molly the one eyed Spanish cat.. the best boat cat ever..
 
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But you're quite right - I've had people do DS theory (and pass) who've never been in a small boat.

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When I did my Ocean theory course one of the first things the instructor asked about was our sailing experience. One guy said that he'd never been on a small boat and didn't mean to start now. On further enquiry it turned out that he was planning to cross the Sahara by car (pre-GPS). He passed (and deserved to)!

On a slightly different slant, it's clear that several RYA Examiners and YMIs are following this thread. The annual conference is next weekend; if anyone else is going, can we meet?
 
Yep, thats us lol... from the Scillies. "Ruddles' Seastream 34 ketch... you probably mean 2006 though... not 05..
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your right!

Time flies.

You kept your Biscay adventure quiet.
Hope all goes well on your next leg!
 
On further enquiry it turned out that he was planning to cross the Sahara by car (pre-GPS). He passed (and deserved to)!
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A multichoice answer-






1) What bloody tide table was he using?








2) Maybe he knew more about global warming than the rest of us!










3) Not a chap called Thatcher perhaps?

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I got my day skipper and yacht master shore side, I bin sailing my own boat for 25 years, but what am I supposed to know for a bit of paper with ICC on ?

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Easy one. It's on the application form, which you can get here.
 
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a lot of what has been said seems to suggest that the ICC is a legal requirement for sailing abroad under a British flag, this is not the case as far as i'm aware?

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It's not that way round. Under UK law for small non-commercial craft, anyone can sail anywhere without a certificate. But some other countries do have legal requirements for certificates, and for British-flagged craft in those countries the requirements are met by the ICC.
 
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