ICC cert. another EU Joke?

Should you feel the "urge" to get some kind of qualification, I noticed today that they're running a VHF course at Fox's some time in February.
Apparently it's a legal requirement to have VHF cert if you have one installed /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

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Nothing wrong with the ICC, at least it is accepted away from the UK , the very expensive rya stuff isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]Why do people come from all over the world to get their qualifications to work in the yachting industry? Then why have the RYA (as a result of demand) allowed centres to be established for Yachmaster Examinations in Australia, South Africa, France etc etc Check your facts before making wrong sweeping statements.

If what you say is true, then why is the industry standard entry ticket for driving a yacht commercially the YM Offshore and Ocean?

Also compared to some other countries schemes the RYA one is cheap. You can book an exam on your own boat with your own crew and just pay the exam fee. You don't have to take any courses at all if you don't want to.



I declare a sort of interest as I don't work for the RYA but I am an independant examiner.

Besides, why have you got such a problem with the RYA?

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I dont think John, that anyone was talking about commercial anything ?. Personally I would like to see enforced certification similar to a PPLA. Far more stringent than any RYA course, especially theory. As for acceptance as a 'pleasure use' yottie ticket away from the uk, I think my facts are quite correct.
What the rya needs is competition, it is a monolopy which has stagnated. I think the cause is good but the practice is not. It is getting a bit like the PADI diving courses, gotta go deeper, so I can get higher lol.. too many see it as an accumulation of stickers game. For the VAST majority of users in the vast majority of situations relating to their real life sailing, the ICC is fine and does what it says on the tin. Also, too much in the rya is left to the examiners interpretation of a standard.
At the end of the day it is experience that counts with sound theoretical background. I saw a guy accepted for his qualifying miles for yotmeister on the basis that he was part of a watch on a tallship (I was on the yacht whilst he was examined!).. a junior crew, making absolutely no decisions or having any responsibility and part of a 10 man watch. (Cornwall 2004) Now that is a joke. I know there are always exceptions, but I feel the standards are low.

Anyays, the ICC is fine for its purpose. It is up to the person to accept his or her abilites and comptetence to do what they intend. It is basic, but, so are the rya courses. The names applied to the courses are, imho misleading too. Yachtmaster being a case in point.

Regards

Joe
 
As noted above, the ICC is issued under the authority of a little-known United Nations body based/officed in Switzerland. As a consequence - or maybe even as an objective - the template ICC is the ONLY 'certificate of sailey-boat competence' that has a truly international standing, and thus may appear in the guidance manuals ( produced by local civil servants ) of officials all over the planet..... So it may be recognised.

Originally called in these isles the 'Gin and Tonic Certificate', that's about what it used to cost us..... Peeps would request the indulgence of a Flag Officer of a Recognised Sailing Club, who would say 'I know you; you're all right; I'll sign your piece of paper,' and the relevant forumite would say 'Thank you very much. What are you having....?' 'Oh, another Gilbeys - or Sapphire - or Gordon's.......'

Been there, done that, got the heavy headache.....!

Alternatively, the Crusty_Old_Commodore might say 'I don't know you very well, and I'm busy right now. Why don't you go talk with that sea school instructor chappie over there. I'm sure he can sort you out....'

The system worked well enough; it wasn't broken, but the RYA decided to 'fix it'.

Seeing an easy income stream, they persuade their fellow-delegates at a meeting of National Sailing Organisations that they wanted to raise standards, and profile, and money..... The French, Dutch, Germans, Portuguese, Belgians et al had no particular axe to grind, for they had enough legislation anyway to deal with the criminally incompetent, so shrugged.

The RYA came back and persuaded the predecessors of the MCA that this was a 'good thing' and that they, the RYA, should run it. The pre-MCA - preoccupied with far more serious stuff - gently invited the RYA to 'go forth and multiply'.... which they did.

Now, little of this would cause much of a fuss, except that the RYA - knowing that no-one in real power cared a tu'penny stuff about something so inconsequential as the ICC scheme - decided to make the certificate 'time out' after 5 years, so they could charge you 'n me another £35 or so for a re-issue of a bit of paper every so often. Please note they don't do this with the rather more demanding and worthwhile Day Skipper Practical Certificate, nor for the Yachtmaster Offshore thingy. Those are for life - or until you kill a few peeps. They don't do it for the old VHF Cert or the replacement GMDSS/DSC document - 'cos the controlling authorities of those raised an eyebrow when the RYA's rep suggested a periodic re-fleecing.......

No, the RYA will charge you £35 or so ( I haven't looked lately ) to renew periodically the least demanding qualification on the planet, because no-one kicks up enough fuss about the 'rip-off'....

There's quite a lot the RYA does for some of us that's fair, right and honorable. This just isn't part of that.

Your call.......


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Bilbo.
I mist confess I was unsure of your style at first.. but, you do speak a lot of sense.
My hat off to you.

I had an rya 'girlie' ringing me up when I did not renew the 'subscription demand'... it was an interesting conversation.. which ended in.. no.. I dont want the bloody subscription, just send me the only bit of paperwork I need.
 
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Nothing wrong with the ICC, at least it is accepted away from the UK , the very expensive rya stuff isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]Why do people come from all over the world to get their qualifications to work in the yachting industry? Then why have the RYA (as a result of demand) allowed centres to be established for Yachmaster Examinations in Australia, South Africa, France etc etc Check your facts before making wrong sweeping statements.

If what you say is true, then why is the industry standard entry ticket for driving a yacht commercially the YM Offshore and Ocean?

Also compared to some other countries schemes the RYA one is cheap. You can book an exam on your own boat with your own crew and just pay the exam fee. You don't have to take any courses at all if you don't want to.



I declare a sort of interest as I don't work for the RYA but I am an independant examiner.

Besides, why have you got such a problem with the RYA?

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I dont think John, that anyone was talking about commercial anything ?. Personally I would like to see enforced certification similar to a PPLA. Far more stringent than any RYA course, especially theory. As for acceptance as a 'pleasure use' yottie ticket away from the uk, I think my facts are quite correct.
What the rya needs is competition, it is a monolopy which has stagnated. I think the cause is good but the practice is not. It is getting a bit like the PADI diving courses, gotta go deeper, so I can get higher lol.. too many see it as an accumulation of stickers game. For the VAST majority of users in the vast majority of situations relating to their real life sailing, the ICC is fine and does what it says on the tin. Also, too much in the rya is left to the examiners interpretation of a standard.
At the end of the day it is experience that counts with sound theoretical background. I saw a guy accepted for his qualifying miles for yotmeister on the basis that he was part of a watch on a tallship (I was on the yacht whilst he was examined!).. a junior crew, making absolutely no decisions or having any responsibility and part of a 10 man watch. (Cornwall 2004) Now that is a joke. I know there are always exceptions, but I feel the standards are low.

Anyays, the ICC is fine for its purpose. It is up to the person to accept his or her abilites and comptetence to do what they intend. It is basic, but, so are the rya courses. The names applied to the courses are, imho misleading too. Yachtmaster being a case in point.

Regards

Joe

[/ QUOTE ]Joe, I think I am beginning to understand where you are coming from. I am very sorry that your experience of the YM scheme was such a poor one. I can only say that what you saw and experienced isn't how it is supposed to be. Experience is a very difficult thing to quantify as many miles of sailing might not equal much real experience. One of the things that I have to do is to ascertain whether the experience that people claim that they have really stacks up with the storys and descriptions of sailing that they come with. In the end the proof of the pudding is in the eating and the practical exam taken over a period of 12 - 24 hours is the best way that's been established so far to determine a persons eligibility for the qualification. I would be interested to know how you suggest it might be made more difficult.

I suppose my Instructor Exam (five days at sea with two examiners) might have been more stressful, but one has to have some sort of sense of proportion as to what it appropriate and suitable for amateur yachtsmen.

We must agree to differ about compulsory ticketing. My experience of the countries in the world where compulsory ticketing of yachtsmen and women is a legal requirement is that they look at the RYA scheme and its standards with envy.

I don't think that the ICC is anything more than a VERY base entry level certificate which I have heard described as 'I can drive a boat without crashing too often'. It certainly used to be issued on the nod of the secretary of your local club. The reason I mentioned commercial yachting in the context of qualifications is that it might be seen as a good test of what is acceptable at a higher level. The ICC counts for close to nothing in the commercial world of yachting, the certificate that counts for more than any other is RYA Yachtmaster because usually the certificate has been earned properly. However I do agree that for the majority of people who go sailing off round the world, then the ICC is the only ticket they need.

The RYA has got competition. There are various bodies around the world who advertise their own schemes and I know that the RYA looked long and hard at what to do in response to other courses and qualifications being offered. I have been in the unenvious position of having to re-examine people who thought they had a sort of YM qualification and then discovered that neither their superyacht owner didn't recognise it, nor could it be used towards an ocean ticket.

You will not be suprised that I am not convinced the courses and exams have stagnated. There is a continuous rethink about what is relevant and important to the various qualifications. I am sometimes involved in discussions about the rethinks as are most examiners I guess. The annual conference is the usual time for these matters to be aired, but the YM committee are always reviewing what is appropriate.

I can only repeat that I am very sorry that you saw what was (possibly) a poor exmple of a YM exam being conducted. None of us are perfect, but there are standards laid down, and examiners are quality controlled and re-examined as an examiner regularly. The standards applied should be consistent. I note that my pass fail rate is about the same as the national average. A sample of all my candidates are interviewed by an independant body and the answers are given to me anonomously. The satifaction rating (even from the failures) is uniformly high.

Perhaps you can suggest concrete and practical ways the scheme might be improved?
 
"Leesten veree carefulee. I vill say zis only wunce..."

Over quite a lot of years, I have met a fair quotient of RYA Yachtmaster Examiners. Every last man-jack of 'em had his quirks.
(Earwigoagain ) IMHO, every last man-jack of 'em were skilled and hugely experienced seamen whose judgement and probity ( note : NOT sobriety! ) was beyond my quibble. Mind you, a fair proportion of 'em don't suffer fools too gladly.....

Oh, yes, in private and over a jar, I'd have - now and then - a slightly different perspective on this and maybe that. But one thing I'd witness far and near - they were each of them their own men. The quality of standards of the RYA National Training Scheme - Practical is wholly in their hands. And they do it quite a bit better than can reasonably be expected.

"They may not always be right, but they're very seldom wrong" as one decorated Lifeboat Cox'n put it, over another brandy. The weak point, if there is one, is in the clerical, office-bound and prescriptive nature of RYA Towers' input. Maybe they try their best down on the Hamble, maybe not. Certainly, a monopoly for so long has not been good for us.

But it's a damn good scheme, mostly due to the conscientious efforts of the likes of 'John_Morris' and his fellow Examiners. And I've never met him.

Respec'

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I think the original point is that someone with no sailing experience can do a 5 day course, be taught to tick the required boxes, and get a ICC. Even though they have not sailed on there own, bit like passing your test without being tested on motorway driving. But if you have 20 years sailing experience, it counts for nothing if you do not have RYA bits of paper.

I thought out of interest what is the ICC requirement, what do I have to be able to prove I can do. The only thing I can find after a quick look on RYA site, is that I need to sign up for a 12 - 24 hour exam at a RYA sailing school. But not what I need to be able to do, or have I missed a major link on the site.

Brian
 
I think if you can identify that it is a boat you're on the right track ... I think the second part is can you pay?!

the ICC is IMHO a compete joke ... it certainly does not imply any real competence and could be passed by a 1 week flotilla crew with a mornings instruction ...
However, I do believe that the voluntary ticketing schemes are as good as we can expect (although there are some annomalies sometimes) ... which is why I was happy to take myself and the other crew through Dazzed Kipper ... as it helps build confidence, gets outside input into the way we handle the boat and is a blummin good excuse to get on the boat for 5 days!!

Believing that you "can sail" because you have passed "ICC" or even "Dazed Kipper" is just not the way it should be ...
I won't comment on CS or YM practical because I've not done either ... yet ...
 
I got my day skipper and yacht master shore side, I bin sailing my own boat for 25 years, but what am I supposed to know for a bit of paper with ICC on ?

Brian
 
Now then laddies - some of you are being a wee bit harsh in your remarks about the RYA's part in this ICC business. I do not speak on behalf of the RYA; but I do know that the ICC is a minimum standard of competence demanded of UK skippers by non-UK MCA authorities to ensure that UK registered small craft, whilst in their Coastal and inland waters, will be under the command of those who have been at least tested to the subjects and levels of competency shown in the ICC application form. ( These basically are pitched at the level of competency reached at the successful completion of a Practical Day Skipper Course). The RYA in turn is authorised by the MCA to superintend the ICC exam ( the latter conducted by recognised training centres) and further authorised to issue the ICC to those who successfully complete the RYA Practical Day Skipper course. These pragmatic and flexible arrangements, which are very much to the advantage of the UK small craft skipper, have to be defended by our MCA from time to time in IMO discussions with non-UK MCAs. To those who are critical of these arrangements ( which exempt us from having to acquire foreign qualifications) - be careful what you wish for!! Sorry if this is a bit heavy and prolonged; but I did not have time to write a shorter post!!/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
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will be under the command of those who have been at least tested to the subjects and levels of competency shown in the ICC application form. ( These basically are pitched at the level of competency reached at the successful completion of a Practical Day Skipper Course)

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Rubbish .... The ICC goes no-where-near the level of a DS prac.....
 
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I believe it to be the case that many people who had never set foot on a boat took their DS and CS theory courses and passed the exams, basically for entertainment. Subsidised evening courses provided a worthwhile activity at minimal cost. I don't think many of them would presume to be awarded an ICC simply by requesting it.

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Nor would they get one if they did ask. The evening courses dont make you a DS or YM and dont qualify you for the ICC.

But you're quite right - I've had people do DS theory (and pass) who've never been in a small boat.
 
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Rather like some people I have met who thought that graduating in mechanical engineering made them Engineers, even though they had never taken up tools in anger!

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You're out of date. The concept of learning "on the tools" and maybe a bit of nightschool worked well in the early days of the industrial revolution but is one reason why in Britain we are now an ex industrial power. You dont design a decent car or a plane or a bridge with spanners in your hands. Engineering is now high tech not low.
 
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You dont design a decent car or a plane or a bridge with spanners in your hands. Engineering is now high tech not low.

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And you don't comprehend what is feasible for the workforce to create by burying your head in a book.
 
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Seeing an easy income stream, they persuade their fellow-delegates at a meeting of National Sailing Organisations that they wanted to raise standards, and profile, and money.....

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I've got nothing constructive to add to the debate, but just thought I'd congratulate you on a lovely syllepsis.
 
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Perhaps you can suggest concrete and practical ways the scheme might be improved?

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Jogn, thanks you for the input, yes, you are correct, I think I have been put off by my experience of rya courses and assesments / exams. - a drunken skipper in Majorca.. not that he drank on the boat afaik, but the effects from the previous night were obvious... He worked to a checklist.. ie, anchor in 5mts of water, no wind, you could see the anchor on the bottom with chain coiled on top.. "right, youve all done anchoring" .. "fire a flare upwind".. no I said.. "yes he said" and then told me not to comment on his instruction... that was the day skipper.. I came to it with a lot of background experience and wanted to do the courses / exams becuase I genuinely believed they would fill in lots of gaps. For me, they didt. I came away very dissapointed. The other on CS with 3 YM's was as described above. The guy also struggled with the practical and as allowed numerous attempts at many things. Most dissapointing.

Anyways, how can it be improved... the million dollar question I suppose.

For me.. and only IMHO...

theory, like the PPL I did, there were 5 written exams.. one specific to meteorology, one to air law (rules of the road etc).. other areas to test are general boat systems, to a reasonable level of understanding. Basic aerodynamics.. all the things that tend to overcome inexperienced sailors and result in problems and sometimes emergency situations. I feel that the shorebased ym exam taken in a nightschool situation is often of little use. Many people new to sailing are unable to equate to a lot of the content and learn to pass an exam, not the subject. Some practical experience is necessary before the theory to get a handle on things. Maybe if the DS was called 'introduction to sailing' and the requirement for an actual cert was based on succesful passing of the theory exams ?.. then a combined test at sea. That would be my basic entry level skipper cert. but not many would pay for that I am sure. It is a voluntary scheme at the end of the day.
People could then go on to get nightime experience, instruments (especially with todays almost total reliance on electronics by many) then greater distance and offshore.

On the practical as it stands, CS / YM.. in my experience much of the time is used in showing flash cards, copying a radio 4 forecast etc..whilst these are very useful things, they are not really indicative of the depth of knowledge, only what the group practiced ad infinium the night before but then go on to forget as quickly. Man overboard, although essential, is also unrealistic, the actual recovery of a casualty should be simulated. Also, having a crew of 4 or 5 on board is again not realistic to many. A simulation using max 2 people would be better, with a recovery of a simulated casualty dummy or similar. Hooking a bucket and fender with a boathook is not representative of real world.even a single handed recovery would be beneficial as many sail with just 2 people, leaving only one on board to do everything. Fouled prop simulation and engine failure simulation and an actual securing of the vessel in a safe place using the sails. (obviously talking raggy boats here lol). I also have a problem with the actual time the peole spend as true skipper in a decision making role. but how do you simulate otherwise ? not sure.. I think many examiners and intructors are too quick to jump in and comment or correct.. rather than let a situation develop fully unless the boat and crew are in imminent danger. I also believe a practical assesment in poor weather would be good, possibly necessary. That again is difficult, butnot impossible. The actual USE of reefing systems (essential to safe practice) should be demonstated in real conditions and real sea conditions, not just sheltered area like the solent and carrick roads. That would be informative me thinks. This all takes time I know, on a one to one basis with an examiner, I believe there is enough time. but with 4 people doing the exam on the 'day' there isnt.
I dont profess to have the answers..just my own ideas. I dont envy you the job you do, I am sure it has many rewards and many frustrations.
It could be seen by some as removing freedoms, but I think if one has a qualification it should be demonstably meaninful, and also, subject to revoke.
An emotive subject.

Regards John, You seem to be of a different breed to the ones I have met. That is good.
Joe.
 
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