I tried to buy a boat today, failed.

[KREW2]

I think you have to make the assumption that the seller has accepted the offer - or the broker is certain he will and does not want the potential buyer to waste his time and money viewing the boat.

The latter part is correct. I tried to buy it unseen last Friday, my only condition was a hull survey, I was advised against doing this. Yesterday I offered full asking price with no survey. Had my offer been accepted I could have arranged insurance and payment in a couple of hours.

Kingfisher......So, sorry, from the brokers point of view, you're just not worth it.

Have you not given thought to the seller?

 

[kingfisher]

Who said anything about the client here? The brokers' first interest is the broker. Of course in this game scenario the client is 950£ better off, but since he is kept out of the loop, his benefits are of no importance.
The theory was develloped after a study showed that when brokers sold their own house, they sold on average for 10% more then when they sold the house of a client. The theory itself is perfectly understandable, from a human psyche point of view, and has thought me that I will never negotiate with a broker for a fixed percentage, but rather
- 5% if the boat sells for 15K or less
- 20% for everything above 15K
- 50% for everything above 20K
So the better the broker works, the more he gets, and it motivates him to go the extra mile.
If you just use the 5% (or 10% for that matter)- rule there is not enough incentive for player B (the broker) to put in the extra effort.

 

[Coaster]

...a study showed that when brokers sold their own house, they sold on average for 10% more then when they sold the house of a client.

Who are these "brokers"?

What study?

I would be very surprised indeed if this supposed study related to the UK, and would find such a claim absurd for British houses.

Perhaps similar allegations about British boat sales are equally exaggerated?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Who are these "brokers"?

What study?

I would be very surprised indeed if this supposed study related to the UK, and would find such a claim absurd for British houses.

I think he's referring to an American study, quoted in "Freakonomics"

 

[Tranona]

So the better the broker works, the more he gets, and it motivates him to go the extra mile.
If you just use the 5% (or 10% for that matter)- rule there is not enough incentive for player B (the broker) to put in the extra effort.

Interesting theory and intuitively attractive.

However, this assumes an active and competitive market where "extra effort" can result in a higher price and that the reward for the broker is worth the extra effort. Doubt there are many cases where more than one person is trying to buy a boat, so the starting price has to be fixed at the outset and the only adjustment is likely to be downwards!

From a client (seller) point of view, if the posts on this subject on these fora is anything to go by, brokers commission is seen as a necessary evil to be minimised at all costs (my broker is cheaper than your broker). This leads to a concentration on cost rather than the net proceeds to the vendor - re-inforced by brokers selling their services on the basis of low rates!

My story to illustrate this client/broker relationship is my late mother in law. When she sold one of her houses, the agent found a buyer the day it went on the market. She bitched about paying his commission because he had not "worked hard enough for it" - by which she meant spending money on advertising, holding lots of viewings, been at her beck and call etc. This was after she had 3 independent valuations and had chosen the agent because he said he could get the agreed price - which he did.

So, client/broker relationships are never going to be perfect. In boats, one of the key roles of the broker is to do the things the owner can't (or won't) - mainly finding potential buyers and arranging viewings. This often means a limited choice of broker. then finding buyers is not easy and the broker really earns his keep turning a prospect into a firm buyer as quickly as possible.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Aren't we missing the obvious?

It's the broker who wants to buy it ... there is no other buyer ... make himself a quick ten grand which is a lot better than his commission would have been!

 

[V1701]

Aren't we missing the obvious?

It's the broker who wants to buy it ... there is no other buyer ... make himself a quick ten grand which is a lot better than his commission would have been!

...in that case wouldn't the broker have just called to say she'd been offered on & the offer was accepted? Why assume the boat's "worth" 25 grand (the "going rate" for a Sadler 32) when no-one's even seen her?

It's an interesting thread but there's lots of unfounded assumptions...

 

[KREW2]

...in that case wouldn't the broker have just called to say she'd been offered on & the offer was accepted? Why assume the boat's "worth" 25 grand (the "going rate" for a Sadler 32) when no-one's even seen her?

It's an interesting thread but there's lots of unfounded assumptions...

The only thing that I can assure you of is, my unconditional offer of full asking price was not put forward.
What I found strange was to be told, I was wasting my time as my offer would only be matched.

 

[mickywillis]

If boat is still on the brokers list/website, why not get a friend to ring them (use 141 to withold number) and just ask a simple " is the Sadler 32 advertised with you, still for sale?
Seems the easiest answer to me?

 

[KREW2]

If boat is still on the brokers list/website, why not get a friend to ring them (use 141 to withold number) and just ask a simple " is the Sadler 32 advertised with you, still for sale?
Seems the easiest answer to me?

Gonna keep watch, I've no reason not to approach the broker again, if it is still offered for sale. I believe he genuinely wanted to save me a journey, a boat at that price is not worth getting into a fuss about, from a brokers point of view. Then I thought he is really doing a good selling job, coaxing me into making an unconditional offer for the full asking price, but I was wrong.

 

[Wandering Star]

why not get a friend to ring them

Aah, that suggestion fails at the first hurdle, if you check KREW2's profile you'll see he hasn't got any friends and if you'd ever met him you'd understand why! Having said that, the concept of your idea is good, maybe he could pay a forumite to make that call?

Cheers, Brian.

 

[saxonpirate]

Aren't we missing the obvious?

It's the broker who wants to buy it ... there is no other buyer ... make himself a quick ten grand which is a lot better than his commission would have been!

Exactly....I've been working through the posts thinking ....'the bloody broker wants it'. Either for himself or someone he's got lined up. I'd put money on it. Never put your faith in brokers.

Little story...TRUE. Several years ago I put a boat on the market for £33,000. Got a call from the broker saying he'd had a firm offer for £30,000. Was a bit pushed for cash at the time, and although the boat was immaculate...agreed to the offer. Boat was surveyed and sold. I met the new owners by chance in the yard a few weeks later. Got chatting like you do. Turned out, they'd put in an offer for £32,500 and paid the cheque into the brokers account. Broker had pocketed the extra £2,500. My SWMBO at the time rang the brokers secretary. He was knocking at our door at 6pm (as white as a sheet) that evening with the cash saying there had been a misunderstanding. Very respected broker in the area at the time too YBDSA...the lot??? How many others had he pulled that one on over the years..... Think about it, how often do owners from different parts of the country get to meet.....

 

[Ubergeekian]

Turned out, they'd put in an offer for £32,500 and paid the cheque into the brokers account. Broker had pocketed the extra £2,500. ..... Think about it, how often do owners from different parts of the country get to meet.....

That's the great advantage of buying a Prt 1 registered boat ... both buyer and seller have to sign the Bill of Sale and the price is written there.

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

FWIW, I saw the boat in question at 2:20 pm this afternoon.............a for sale notice attatched (sp?), a ladder tied to the stern and the mast is off. To my untrained eye, the underneath looks in reasonable condition, the topsides could do with a good clean, couldn't get close enough to see much more, I'm afraid. Would be happy to go and look again tomorrow (Saturday) afternoon if you tell me what to look for and/or ask, no trouble as it's only half an hour from where I will be on duty 'till 2 pm. Feel free to pm me if you like.

Regards Ian.

 

[Channel Ribs]

...boat on the market for £33,000. Got a call from the broker saying he'd had a firm offer for £30,000. Was a bit pushed for cash at the time, and although the boat was immaculate...agreed to the offer. Boat was surveyed and sold. I met the new owners by chance in the yard a few weeks later. Got chatting like you do. Turned out, they'd put in an offer for £32,500 and paid the cheque into the brokers account.

That is a truly outrageous fiddle and I can assure that brokers do not do that in my experience, our own paperwork is countersigned by both the buyer and the seller and clearly shows the sale amount. I would urge anyone selling a boat to get a blank copy of the sale agreement early on in the process!

The process described above is not brokering, it is trading.

 

[Channel Ribs]

I will never negotiate with a broker for a fixed percentage, but rather
- 5% if the boat sells for 15K or less
- 20% for everything above 15K
- 50% for everything above 20K
So the better the broker works, the more he gets

Sorry but that is bonkers.

Being a broker is not about selling a boat for what the seller expects. It is about realistic values, understanding the urgency, predicting the market and knowing buyers who are waiting to buy.

For a 50% commission I am sure the world is full of people who would sell your boat for £20,001! Brokers? No.

Bear in mind that sale would yield you 10k, is that really worth more than £14,900 less 5%?

As our American cousins would say "do the math".

 

[V1701]

It is possible to get a Sadler 32 at that price, here's one I missed out on earlier this year, I had a viewing arranged & got a call from the broker who said she'd been offered on & that he'd call me if it fell through, never thought any more of it but was a bit gutted, I'd got quite excited about it & was pretty sure if she was OK I'd have offered...

 

[V1701]

Sorry but that is bonkers.

Being a broker is not about selling a boat for what the seller expects. It is about realistic values, understanding the urgency, predicting the market and knowing buyers who are waiting to buy.

For a 50% commission I am sure the world is full of people who would sell your boat for £20,001! Brokers? No.

Bear in mind that sale would yield you 10k, is that really worth more than £14,900 less 5%?

As our American cousins would say "do the math".

I think that Kingfisher means 5% up to £15k PLUS 20% of anything between £15 and £20k PLUS 50% of anything over £20k, the pluses being what the broker works at achieving. That, based on an initial asking price of £15k would raise a laugh at best from any broker I would imagine, but on an initial asking price of £20k they might entertain it. How would you respond to someone who approached you with something like that?

 

[Channel Ribs]

.... the pluses being what the broker works at achieving.

How would you respond to someone who approached you with something like that?

Our commission is a very low 4%, I see no reason to have a sliding scale and I think it would put most sellers off. Since most brokers have a transparent commission and sale agreement I also think it would put buyers off.

The idea of brokering a boat is (generally) to sell it, the first step in that process is agreeing a good marketable value. The commission calculation should not play a big part in the sale, the value of the boat and the transparency of the process are both far more valuable.

 

[duncanmack]

That's the great advantage of buying a Prt 1 registered boat ... both buyer and seller have to sign the Bill of Sale and the price is written there.

Not necessarily.

The price is often put as "£1 and other consideration."