I think this is disgusting from a fellow boater

[dhobyb]

Speaking as someone who has just made the change to sail, mainly due to the cost of fuel, both for the boat and the Travel to the boat, I have a great deal of sympathy for the mobo users, I am dismayed that so mainy people on this forum are willing to roll over and accept our treatment by the Belgians, and accept extra costs, Our government is going to do nothing for us, and the RYA just don't understand, so just boycott Belgium, and make sure they know why, you never know they might try and attract us with lower fuel cost. However if we carry on the way we are going (all the infighting) we will never achieve anything.......Solidarity boaters!! its the only way.

If we had the French mentality would we all go to Weymouth in August to make our point.

just one point my marina fees went UP when I changed, marina's charge per foot regardless of propulsion method.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Speaking as someone who has just made the change to sail, mainly due to the cost of fuel, both for the boat and the Travel to the boat, I have a great deal of sympathy for the mobo users, I am dismayed that so mainy people on this forum are willing to roll over and accept our treatment by the Belgians, and accept extra costs, Our government is going to do nothing for us, and the RYA just don't understand, so just boycott Belgium, and make sure they know why, you never know they might try and attract us with lower fuel cost. However if we carry on the way we are going (all the infighting) we will never achieve anything.......Solidarity boaters!! its the only way.

If we had the French mentality would we all go to Weymouth in August to make our point.

just one point my marina fees went UP when I changed, marina's charge per foot regardless of propulsion method.

Should have got a smaller boat then mush! But Yea verily, solidarity amongst us all is the only way to fight back. I know that virtual arguments on these forums between raggies and mobo jockeys, but apart from a few exceptions it's mostly in good humour. put it all aside say I, get organised and shout loud.

 

[Captain Daz]

"Rubbish. The first fuel duty harmonisation directive was in 1992. Before that date, there would have been no derogation because there was nothing to be derogated from."



Can I put it differently ?

A reduced tax has been levied on diesel not for road use since around 1930,or possibly even earlier.This was originally to encourage mechanisation of our fishing and agricutural industries and make them more efficient producing at home the food we were importing from elsewhere.

It is not a 'reduced' tax. The tax on diesel for cars is called a Road Vehicle Tax, it is not 'reduced' or 'subsidised' it is simply 'different'.

Vegetable oil does not attract Road Vehicle Tax but start running your car with it and you then become liable for it (or it did the last time I looked, ages ago).

People are forgetting that the tax in question was originally implemented to tax road users.

 

[ian38_39]

The UK government has already recognised that there is no gain to be had by charging road tax on fuel for leisure boaters or red would be gone.

As such all they need is to be given a way of achieving this without upsetting our EU neighbours and without risking the fuel getting into the road.fuel supply line.

Starting to sound like a broken record but if it is not against EU regulations to use a marked duty paid fuel then all we need to do is introduce a marking not currently used in Europe for our marine fuel, which is already a dedicated fuel made specifically for marine use and is different to both traditional red, which has a high sulphur content and different to road fuel as it has no bio content.

I can't see how there is a law against duty paid marked fuel as as far as i am aware non of the red is duty free, it just has a lower rate attached.

There would be nothing stopping the UK setting the minimum EU duty rate for propulsion fuel, which if it was then charged at 100% would still be less than we currently pay for red at 60/40.

 

[rubberduck]

Should have got a smaller boat then mush! But Yea verily, solidarity amongst us all is the only way to fight back. I know that virtual arguments on these forums between raggies and mobo jockeys, but apart from a few exceptions it's mostly in good humour. put it all aside say I, get organised and shout loud.

I am all for sticking together & shouting load. Unfortunately , it is pretty small beer to me when put into context of running a business etc. It needs someone to organise things, someone involved in the boat industry. Show me such a person & I will give my full support.

 

[Searush]

The UK government has already recognised that there is no gain to be had by charging road tax on fuel for leisure boaters or red would be gone.

As such all they need is to be given a way of achieving this without upsetting our EU neighbours and without risking the fuel getting into the road.fuel supply line.

Starting to sound like a broken record but if it is not against EU regulations to use a marked duty paid fuel then all we need to do is introduce a marking not currently used in Europe for our marine fuel, which is already a dedicated fuel made specifically for marine use and is different to both traditional red, which has a high sulphur content and different to road fuel as it has no bio content.

I can't see how there is a law against duty paid marked fuel as as far as i am aware non of the red is duty free, it just has a lower rate attached.

There would be nothing stopping the UK setting the minimum EU duty rate for propulsion fuel, which if it was then charged at 100% would still be less than we currently pay for red at 60/40.

Oh dear, you just haven't read the threads have you? This is not directly related to the level of duty paid - if it was then receipts showing duty paid would satisfy the Belgians. That has been tried as a defence & failed.

It is because he fuel carries a dye marker (red in UK, green in Eire) that BELGIAN LAW prohibits. Now that Belgian law may be designed to prevent tax reduced BELGIAN marked fuel from being used by leisure boaters, but is being applied to any boats in Belgian waters, regardless of where they bought that fuel & what tax was paid on it.

So, unless you have the major bulk of your fuel undyed, stay out od Belgian waters (ie up to 12 miles offshore, I presume?)

 

[Chrusty 1]

I am all for sticking together & shouting load. Unfortunately , it is pretty small beer to me when put into context of running a business etc. It needs someone to organise things, someone involved in the boat industry. Show me such a person & I will give my full support.

Ah well, therein lies the rub don't it. I don't think it needs anyone in the boat industry, it just needs a bunch of like minded folk to give the ball a kick and get it rolling.

 

[ian38_39]

Oh dear, you just haven't read the threads have you? This is not directly related to the level of duty paid - if it was then receipts showing duty paid would satisfy the Belgians. That has been tried as a defence & failed.

It is because he fuel carries a dye marker (red in UK, green in Eire) that BELGIAN LAW prohibits. Now that Belgian law may be designed to prevent tax reduced BELGIAN marked fuel from being used by leisure boaters, but is being applied to any boats in Belgian waters, regardless of where they bought that fuel & what tax was paid on it.

So, unless you have the major bulk of your fuel undyed, stay out od Belgian waters (ie up to 12 miles offshore, I presume?)

Belgium are claiming that dyed fuel is not allowed to be used in private boats under EU regulations not their own laws. There seems to be some dispute over this but even if that is the case surely this is why we have mep's, it would fall at our mep's door to get an amendment to that wording so that it read red instead of dyed.
After all the UK is extremely concerned that despite excepting the reasoning for the need for bio free fuel in leisure boats, due to our high level of environmental concerns it is essential that this fuel can not be used in normal road vehicles.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Cruise the south coast of Ireland. No probs with the colour of fuel in your tanks. You can choose to buy white diesel or green and pay the duty difference later. Awesome scenery too on the SW coast: Skelligs, Blaskets, Fastnet, West Cork, Baltimore, Kinsale, Glandore, etc. You'll find only a warm welcome rather than officials chasing tourists.

Wow I can't believe the legs this thread got. One troll's post has generated endless pages.

 

[maby]

Cruise the south coast of Ireland. No probs with the colour of fuel in your tanks. You can choose to buy white diesel or green and pay the duty difference later. Awesome scenery too on the SW coast: Skelligs, Blaskets, Fastnet, West Cork, Baltimore, Kinsale, Glandore, etc. You'll find only a warm welcome rather than officials chasing tourists.

Wow I can't believe the legs this thread got. One troll's post has generated endless pages.

Well, it is still the winter and the days are a bit short for serious sailing, so we have to find something to amuse ourselves!

Would love to cruise Ireland, but it's a bit far from Kent for a long weekend (or even a long week)...

Got no particular wish to visit Belgium, but it does rather get in the way of a leisurely trip to Holland - quite a hike to get there in a straight line. The most worrying thing is the possibility that other countries will take this as a sign that we have given in and start doing the same as the Belgians. The Dutch did start to impose fines, then agreed to hold off till the commission ruled on the subject.

 

[ian38_39]

If this is lost make no mistake UK boaters will be restricted to the UK until white has replaced red. Whether anyone can then afford extended cruising remains to be seen

 

[GrahamHR]

Am I missing something here ? Why don't UK marinas sell white (undyed ) diesel ? Something to do with their customers wanting to pay less than for white diesel road prices + marina mark up perhaps ? I'd imagine most marinas can't sell that much diesel to commercial users to justify having red diesel as the only fuel available; some charter/ angling business boats perhaps. Red or white diesel costs the marinas about the same and it's readily available in the UK; all petrol stations sell it.. Which leads to the conclusion that the majority of UK boaters want to (understandably) use (dyed) fuel with less tax on it than road diesel.

Admittedly, boaters using white fuel from a marina would have to pay the full "road" price ( + marina markup). If it was available, I'd quite happily pay for petrol at my marina if it was the same price as road petrol + marina mark up rather than carrying dozens of 20 litre jerry cans each year.. and of course being a petrol engined boat, mine is a lot less economical than a diesel so I use quite a lot of petrol ( and it's more likely to spontaneously explode). Accidental fuel spills on refuelling with petrol evaporate very quickly though, unlike diesel !

 

[ian38_39]

I agree in as much as the luxury of filling from a pump into the tank is well worth an extra few pence a litre to me as mine are also petrol but let's not forget we have always paid the same for petrol and our boating has been built around it.
For the diesel boys the cost has quadrupled over the past 5 years if you take it to white. That not only has an effect on the boating they do but it will also force a fair few out of boating and if they do leave what they get for their boat is going to be substantialy less.

Petrol boats are already far easier to sell than they ever have been but if you have to pay an extra 15-20p a litre more than petrol for diesel then who is going to pay the extra premium for an equivalent diesel boat. Yes petrol only works to a certain size but the price of petrol boats won't go up and the reduction in diesel boat prices will cause on up the chain.

Many people have mortgages on their boats either marine or added to their house. Falling boat prices will detter new boaters coming in as previously boats have been seen as either a slow or if old enough non depriciating asset.

Losing lower price diesel may be good for the likes of you and me in the short term but ultimately it will hurt the boat industry badly and that is not good for anyone.

 

[ian38_39]

Oh dear, you just haven't read the threads have you? This is not directly related to the level of duty paid - if it was then receipts showing duty paid would satisfy the Belgians. That has been tried as a defence & failed.

It is because he fuel carries a dye marker (red in UK, green in Eire) that BELGIAN LAW prohibits. Now that Belgian law may be designed to prevent tax reduced BELGIAN marked fuel from being used by leisure boaters, but is being applied to any boats in Belgian waters, regardless of where they bought that fuel & what tax was paid on it.

So, unless you have the major bulk of your fuel undyed, stay out od Belgian waters (ie up to 12 miles offshore, I presume?)

Can't find anything about private leisure boats not being able to use dyed fuel. Can find a specific mention of road vehicles.
I think a lot is sour grapes as Belgium have lost red hence use of a current fuel is like, well, a rag to a bull. Maybe a nice yellow one would not be so offensive.

 

[oldgit]

It is not a 'reduced' tax. The tax on diesel for cars is called a Road Vehicle Tax, it is not 'reduced' or 'subsidised' it is simply 'different'.


Yea...but the problem is that road users and others were/are using the "differently taxed" diesel hence the need for identifying it,hence the grief ?

Back to the fact that people were using a fuel taxed at rate not meant for the purposes thay were using it for.

One fuel...one tax rate...No dye ...Simples.

 

[ian38_39]

But that is the rub, it is not one fuel.

The fuel for boating is now different to high sulphur red and 30% bio for road and while the directive makes no mention of leisure boats not having dyed fuel it does say that it is of great importance that it does not enter the tanks of road vehicles.

As the UK is so committed to environmental issues it would not only be immoral but could even be considered reckless if we were to create a situation where non bio diesel were allowed to enter the supply chain for road vehicles, as such it must be marked but to aid other EU members with their enforcement and control of low duty fuel the marker will be unique in Europe

 

[SolentPhill]

Am I missing something here ? Why don't UK marinas sell white (undyed ) diesel ? Something to do with their customers wanting to pay less than for white diesel road prices + marina mark up perhaps ? I'd imagine most marinas can't sell that much diesel to commercial users to justify having red diesel as the only fuel available; some charter/ angling business boats perhaps. Red or white diesel costs the marinas about the same and it's readily available in the UK; all petrol stations sell it.. Which leads to the conclusion that the majority of UK boaters want to (understandably) use (dyed) fuel with less tax on it than road diesel.

Admittedly, boaters using white fuel from a marina would have to pay the full "road" price ( + marina markup). If it was available, I'd quite happily pay for petrol at my marina if it was the same price as road petrol + marina mark up rather than carrying dozens of 20 litre jerry cans each year.. and of course being a petrol engined boat, mine is a lot less economical than a diesel so I use quite a lot of petrol ( and it's more likely to spontaneously explode). Accidental fuel spills on refuelling with petrol evaporate very quickly though, unlike diesel !

I asked that question to my Marina yesterday he came back with the answer today, £1.65 a ltr at today's prices.

That equates to £100 per hour at 22 knt and my boat doesn't use a lot of fuel, those of you with the 45ft shaft boats or older boats must be double that.

But I don't know what the panic is we may have to pay a few more pennies but I've not seen any plans to do away with red, ok until this is sorted we maybe grounded, but it saves a bit of fuel. And if the reason why I started this thread is anything to go by it maybe yachts that are more effected, and if they stick to that attitude then...

 

[photodog]

I dont see what the issue is...

Red is now very close in price to white.
Red is perfectly legal in the UK.
White, if purchased on the continent, is considerably cheaper than Red is here in the UK...

So... if you regularly cruise abroad.. get switched over.... get a tanker delivery to a quayside and pay less than in the marina... You will SAVE money once you are on the other side.....

If you dont cross over.... just buy Red.


If we as either Powerboaters or Sailors stick our heads above the parapet and start arguing in public for cheaper fuel for our hobbies... we are going to look like selfish idiots.

Politically at this time arguing that wealthy "Have Yachts" should pay less for fuel than Gran does in her Metro, in the current economic crisis... is a non-starter.

In fact, I will go further... if the Daily Mail or the Express or the Mirror gets it into their craw to have a go at us over Red Deisel (Which they will if we have the temerity to start a campaign to preserve a privilidge which most people think is reserved for farmers tractors...)... we will lose that as well. In fact we will probably have a special luxury tax imposed or a tax for the nav aids....

Dont get me wrong.... Why should I have to pay road tax for fuel used for heat or to power my boat when it never gets near the M25....

But, I stay shtum and be thankfull that the Government has allowed us to continue with using Red when there is odviously no political benefit in it for them. What happens on the continent is nothing to do with the UK.

 

[GrahamHR]

I asked that question to my Marina yesterday he came back with the answer today, £1.65 a ltr at today's prices.

That equates to £100 per hour at 22 knt and my boat doesn't use a lot of fuel, those of you with the 45ft shaft boats or older boats must be double that.

But I don't know what the panic is we may have to pay a few more pennies but I've not seen any plans to do away with red, ok until this is sorted we maybe grounded, but it saves a bit of fuel. And if the reason why I started this thread is anything to go by it maybe yachts that are more effected, and if they stick to that attitude then...

I do about max 50 engine hours per season. In the last few seasons nearer to 35. Taking say 8 gallons of petrol per hour; 400 gallons, I just realised I can't afford it ( I can really)

Strangely, my wife asked me within the last 2 hours whether I agree that it's a good time to buy a bigger, diesel engined boat now!

 

[SolentPhill]

I do about max 50 engine hours per season. In the last few seasons nearer to 35. Taking say 8 gallons of petrol per hour; 400 gallons, I just realised I can't afford it ( I can really)

Strangely, my wife asked me within the last 2 hours whether I agree that it's a good time to buy a bigger, diesel engined boat now!

Go for it...