I Think that Batteries/Charging are going to replace Anchors on the site

charles_reed

charles_reed

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As the most contentious, longest threads and with the greatest range of eccentric views on this site.

Has anyone bothered to look @ battery university - covers a lot of ground, is solidly based on original research and might clip the wings of the more audacious eccentrics.
 
charles_reed said:
As the most contentious, longest threads and with the greatest range of eccentric views on this site.

Has anyone bothered to look @ battery university - covers a lot of ground, is solidly based on original research and might clip the wings of the more audacious eccentrics.
Click to expand...

Battery university is not infallible - I imagine that's where you got the incorrect idea you put forward that flooded pocket plate ni-cd batteries suffer memory effect. :)
 
Troubadour said:
Battery university is not infallible - I imagine that's where you got the incorrect idea you put forward that flooded pocket plate ni-cd batteries suffer memory effect. :)
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But why incorrect? ;)
Some do, some don't, and it doesn't matter - question is: is it an issue. Usually not.
Knowledge is certainly bigger than battery university... Yup, I, for one, looked - old time and old age, would be ashamed to put wrong info here and I'm not sure about English names. Well, long time ago, as said, so might be about different types of batteries - but some things were quite contrary to what they write... :o

Considering thousands pages of serious books on the subject, surely this topic can be made bigger than about just few simple metal hooks - what is there to talk about? :cool:
 
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awol said:
Evidence based information appears to be anathematic to some of the denizens of this site. Arguing with them is akin to questioning the existence of a deity with someone who has "faith".
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But why spoil it and let fact get in the the way of fiction.

Brian
 
Rossynant said:
But why incorrect? ;)
Some do, some don't, and it doesn't matter - question is: is it an issue. Usually not.
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It is incorrect, memory effect only applies to sealed sintered plate not pocket plate.
For confirmation try this paper http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2003/McDowallPaperFINAL2003.pdf and various text books.
It just struck me as ironic that someone who has put forward questionable and sometimes demonstrably incorrect ideas on a number of occasions should start a thread criticising others for it.
 
charles_reed said:
....Has anyone bothered to look @ battery university - covers a lot of ground, is solidly based on original research and might clip the wings of the more audacious eccentrics.
Click to expand...
So that's where you get all your incorrect information!

Battery University seems to be 99% about portable batteries. Maybe your boat is powered by Duracell AAAs.

There is only one item on charging lead acid starter batteries and there is no talk of deep cycle batteries. A site that recommends charging at 13.8 volts for "Maximum service life" is of no help to anyone here.

Maybe if I trawl through the pages for hours there are other references to lead acid and deep cycle batteries - but this is not a user-friendly site with good relevant up-to-date information for boat owners.

The author of the site designs and sells battery analysers and his book “Batteries in a Portable World — A Handbook on Rechargeable Batteries for Non-Engineers” is available on Amazon.
 
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sailinglegend420 said:
So that's where you get all your incorrect information!

Battery University seems to be 99% about portable batteries. Maybe your boat is powered by Duracell AAAs.

There is only one item on charging lead acid starter batteries and there is no talk of deep cycle batteries. A site that recommends charging at 13.8 volts for "Maximum service life" is of no help to anyone here.

Maybe if I troll through the pages for hours there are other references to lead acid and deep cycle batteries - but this is not a user-friendly site with good relevant up-to-date information for boat owners.

The author of the site designs and sells battery analysers and his book “Batteries in a Portable World — A Handbook on Rechargeable Batteries for Non-Engineers” is available on Amazon.
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there are about 11 papers on lead-acid and charging regimes - speed-reading has some drawbacks in this age of instant gratification.
 
Batteries couldn't replace anchors, only as kedges anyway. Their holding is very poor, even deep-cycle batteries.
And would the anchor chain be +ve or -ve?
 
Troubadour said:
It is incorrect, memory effect only applies to sealed sintered plate not pocket plate.
For confirmation try this paper http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2003/McDowallPaperFINAL2003.pdf and various text books.
It just struck me as ironic that someone who has put forward questionable and sometimes demonstrably incorrect ideas on a number of occasions should start a thread criticising others for it.
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Allow me to put a slightly wider perspective to your comment:

1. SAFT Société des Accumulateurs Fixes et de Traction (SAFT) was founded in 1918.
2. It became the leading manufacturer of nickel-cadmium batteries both in the aviation sector and in the railway sector.
3. 2008 started a joint venture with Johnson Controls, dissolved in 2011.
4. Jim McDowall has worked in the battery industry since 1977 and is currently in the position of Business Development Manager with Saft’s Energy Storage Business Unit. He is a current member and former Chair of the board of directors of the Electricity Storage Association and has been helping to develop the energy storage market since 1998.
Interesting to find if he's still working for Johnson Controls.

Nowhere in the paper does he make any reference to external published research - he merely states and restates an opinion, understandable in one who earns his bread from #2. He may be correct in rubbishing the street-wisdom that NiCad has a memory effect and merely gives it several other titles (True Memory) (Float Effect & Voltage Depression) (Capacity Fading or Rachetting) (Secondary Discharge Fading) (Coup de Fouet).
He then goes on to make some very pertinent remarks about NiCAD - recharge slowly (What about Float Effect & Voltage Depression?), don't undercharge or overcharge.
And then on to rubbishing all the other papers that state an alternative view.

Finally, may I ask, where can you purchase, over the counter a pocketed cell NiCad battery?
I suspect you'll find that all the commonly available are sintered units.

I think Troubador you've been intellectually mugged.
But then we all get it wrong sometimes, even some of the most worthwhile contributors (and I specifically exclude myself) do so, but their contributions are incredibly valuable.
 
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Lakesailor said:
Batteries couldn't replace anchors, only as kedges anyway. Their holding is very poor, even deep-cycle batteries.
And would the anchor chain be +ve or -ve?
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A great blog - in my (long past) youth I used to do the Lands End - in an Austin 7 (all 23bhp) and latterly in someone else's Dellow (which had the 1172 Ford unit and could actually get up hills with the passenger).

As to batteries as anchors - well they use some very strange things on the Broads (I'm certain they'd take the acid out first).
 
I can't be bothered to prolong this.
Every time you try to be clever by throwing in a reference to something else you've happened to read about you trip yourself up.
I worked for a substantial manufacturer of flooded lead acid, AGM and pocket plate ni-cd for years, dealing with applications in UPS, telephone exchanges, power station switchgear etc. and working with major engineering organisations on tech specs.
I do not know everything about batteries - but more than a dilettante who's just read a bit on the web, mangled and regurgitated it.

Just dealing with the ni-cd point, the thread into which you wrongly introduced memory effect was all about pocket plate batteries, and if you buy flooded ni-cd even now for anything other than engine starting, that's the type you're most likely to use, such as http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produi...gle_Cells_293_340/Language/en-US/Default.aspx although sintered plate technology is more widely used now than it used to be.
I don't think you find any of them "over the counter" but so what? People like Tayna just stock what's in demand. You're not going to use over the counter sealed sintered D cells for your boat domestics are you?
 
@charles_reed
I don't know why you have PM'd me about charging ni-cds.
Suggest you refer to SAFT's manuals such as http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Do...1009.af9a0f7e-b8d3-4d9a-ba02-d86f2def0355.pdf they will answer your questions.
Briefly, typically for flooded pocket plate ni-cd you can single rate charge at typically 1.45vpc or high rate at up to 1.7vpc dropping back to about 1.42vpc float.
Not commenting on sealed sintered plate cells, never had anything to do with them other than as casual user in handheld radio battery packs etc.
 
charles_reed said:
Do please point me to the thread, presumably on this site, where I introduced memory effect into a discussion about pocket-plate Ni-cd?
I'm certainly not too proud to learn or be corrected.
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The lithium battery thread, where Rossynant introduced his enthusiasm for old technology ni-cd, which would certainly have been flooded pocket plate.
 
Troubadour said:
The lithium battery thread, where Rossynant introduced his enthusiasm for old technology ni-cd, which would certainly have been flooded pocket plate.
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Thank-you, I stand corrected - though I thought the original thread was about lithium batteries - I did refer to "memory effect" when praising LiCd batteries as being more practical than lithium cells for marine use.
 
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