Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
I like that summary.
Thanks
I like that summary.
Thanks
I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....
- Thread starter Davydine
- Start date
peterb
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
It's a good summary ....... but:
If you followed it in crossing the Dover TSS then you wouldn't get across. Have a look at AISlive here. It changes all the time, but when I looked just now there were eight ships southbound in a distance of 12 miles, and about the same northbound. Assuming they are doing 20 knots, that's about four and a half minutes between ships. If you are doing 6 knots, that's time for you to do just under half a mile. If you start your avoidance manoeuvre at two miles away, then four ships will have passed before you reach the line, let alone crossing to safety on the other side. To be safe, you have to work much closer to the line, establish which of the ships is (or are!) on collision course(s), then think how you are going to "collide" with the middle of one of the gaps.
And don't say "Well, I would wait for a bigger gap." With the present state of the Dover Strait traffic, there ain't going to be no bigger gap. Sorry, but that's the practical situation.
It's a good summary ....... but:
If you followed it in crossing the Dover TSS then you wouldn't get across. Have a look at AISlive here. It changes all the time, but when I looked just now there were eight ships southbound in a distance of 12 miles, and about the same northbound. Assuming they are doing 20 knots, that's about four and a half minutes between ships. If you are doing 6 knots, that's time for you to do just under half a mile. If you start your avoidance manoeuvre at two miles away, then four ships will have passed before you reach the line, let alone crossing to safety on the other side. To be safe, you have to work much closer to the line, establish which of the ships is (or are!) on collision course(s), then think how you are going to "collide" with the middle of one of the gaps.
And don't say "Well, I would wait for a bigger gap." With the present state of the Dover Strait traffic, there ain't going to be no bigger gap. Sorry, but that's the practical situation.
DaveS
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
Well I wasn't expecting to post on this thread - will it ever end? - but I thought I'd have a look at the AIS data. Could be interesting. But I got a bit put off by the registration - they're obviously aiming at the commercial sector and insist on a company name - although they do allow "vessel spotting" (for nautical anoraks, presumably) as a type of business!
Well I wasn't expecting to post on this thread - will it ever end? - but I thought I'd have a look at the AIS data. Could be interesting. But I got a bit put off by the registration - they're obviously aiming at the commercial sector and insist on a company name - although they do allow "vessel spotting" (for nautical anoraks, presumably) as a type of business!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
If you read my post above (long way above!) if a collision risk is possible and speeds are 20 &6kts then when a ship is 2 mls away you are 0.6mls from their track. If you act then you will be turning 73deg towards the stern of the ship, slowly tracking it round and crossing just behind its stern. Total time about 6 to 7min at 6kts.
That is why in the question posed, turning to starboard and crossing the wake plus keeping as much speed on as posible and as far as possible keep at 90 deg to TSS is nearly everyones preferred option, crossing the TSS as quickly as possible.
I have always had the benefit of MARPA but with a gaggle of ships at varying speeds I would not criticise a skipper who choose to slow down and choose a less conjested gap to attempt to cross in.
It is all a judgement call and I cannot honestly say when I start my avoiding action. Next Xing I do I will judge it by eye, as normal, and once I take avoiding action measure the actual distance on the radar. If I was to guess it would be 2mls but I am not really sure.
If you read my post above (long way above!) if a collision risk is possible and speeds are 20 &6kts then when a ship is 2 mls away you are 0.6mls from their track. If you act then you will be turning 73deg towards the stern of the ship, slowly tracking it round and crossing just behind its stern. Total time about 6 to 7min at 6kts.
That is why in the question posed, turning to starboard and crossing the wake plus keeping as much speed on as posible and as far as possible keep at 90 deg to TSS is nearly everyones preferred option, crossing the TSS as quickly as possible.
I have always had the benefit of MARPA but with a gaggle of ships at varying speeds I would not criticise a skipper who choose to slow down and choose a less conjested gap to attempt to cross in.
It is all a judgement call and I cannot honestly say when I start my avoiding action. Next Xing I do I will judge it by eye, as normal, and once I take avoiding action measure the actual distance on the radar. If I was to guess it would be 2mls but I am not really sure.
Davydine
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
Blimey, wasn't expecting a critique on my use of the English Language!
To be clear I am on the Yacht, but I am using the engine. The cargo vessel is off my starboard bow on a constant bearing.
I thought the rest of my question made it clear that I know I am the give way vessel and that if I were not in a TSS I would change course to pass behind his stern..... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Blimey, wasn't expecting a critique on my use of the English Language!
To be clear I am on the Yacht, but I am using the engine. The cargo vessel is off my starboard bow on a constant bearing.
I thought the rest of my question made it clear that I know I am the give way vessel and that if I were not in a TSS I would change course to pass behind his stern..... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
G
Guest
Guest
An old Captain told me ....
When I was a first trip 4th Mate .... and we had a large fishing fleet spread out ahead of us ...
Why are you trying to sort all in one go ... take each as it comes ... make it as simple as possible...
He even with the radar switched down a range ... changing a screen of confetti to a handful of nearest targets ...
I never forgot that lesson. It meant what I would have possibly ended up doing large manouevres for - I actually smaller more controlled maintaining near enough course etc. but without interfering with them or misunderstandings.
I think his lesson was invaluable ... as it seems here that odd posts bring in the "next ship etc" ...
I can remember umpteen crossings of TSS English Channel etc. when employed on small Coasters of 800 -900 ton ... speed 8 - 9 kts .... His advise was "Gold". In fact I found it easier to look out the window allied with Compass brgs to do it ... instead of the confetti screen of Radar.
Why people want to complicate matters ????
When I was a first trip 4th Mate .... and we had a large fishing fleet spread out ahead of us ...
Why are you trying to sort all in one go ... take each as it comes ... make it as simple as possible...
He even with the radar switched down a range ... changing a screen of confetti to a handful of nearest targets ...
I never forgot that lesson. It meant what I would have possibly ended up doing large manouevres for - I actually smaller more controlled maintaining near enough course etc. but without interfering with them or misunderstandings.
I think his lesson was invaluable ... as it seems here that odd posts bring in the "next ship etc" ...
I can remember umpteen crossings of TSS English Channel etc. when employed on small Coasters of 800 -900 ton ... speed 8 - 9 kts .... His advise was "Gold". In fact I found it easier to look out the window allied with Compass brgs to do it ... instead of the confetti screen of Radar.
Why people want to complicate matters ????
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: An old Captain told me ....
As I see it when crossing a TSS , the shortest distance between two points is a straight line so if I plot a heavy at x degrees compass bearing then a few minutes later check again , if x is still x , a change in bearing by only a couple of degrees would take me off that potential collision course and wouldn't see me going with the TSS or breaking any rules , so as long as I keep a good watch while making the crossing I'd be OK in everybodys view . If I end up having to turn sharply in either direction it means I shouldn't have made that coffee or I'd have seen the situation coming and avoided it
As I see it when crossing a TSS , the shortest distance between two points is a straight line so if I plot a heavy at x degrees compass bearing then a few minutes later check again , if x is still x , a change in bearing by only a couple of degrees would take me off that potential collision course and wouldn't see me going with the TSS or breaking any rules , so as long as I keep a good watch while making the crossing I'd be OK in everybodys view . If I end up having to turn sharply in either direction it means I shouldn't have made that coffee or I'd have seen the situation coming and avoided it
duncanmack
Well-Known Member
Re: An old Captain told me ....
Dave, you have it exaclty!!!!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Dave, you have it exaclty!!!!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: An old Captain told me ....
At last /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif time for a /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I think
At last /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif time for a /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I think
duncanmack
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
[ QUOTE ]
are you talking from an individual yotties point of view of the colregs
[ QUOTE ]
No matter which side a ship was closing on me in a TSS I'd tend to turn towards
[/ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope so ..... cos its buffoons like you who cause such confusion to others who transit traffic separation schemes /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should spell it out to you in words with few syllables.
DO NOT LET THE CLOSING SHIP BECOME A COLLISION RISK. ALWAYS ASSUME HE HASN'T SEEN YOU.
That clear enough for you??
I thought you would understand what I was getting at, but you evidently lack the apparatus to comprehend. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
are you talking from an individual yotties point of view of the colregs
[ QUOTE ]
No matter which side a ship was closing on me in a TSS I'd tend to turn towards
[/ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope so ..... cos its buffoons like you who cause such confusion to others who transit traffic separation schemes /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should spell it out to you in words with few syllables.
DO NOT LET THE CLOSING SHIP BECOME A COLLISION RISK. ALWAYS ASSUME HE HASN'T SEEN YOU.
That clear enough for you??
I thought you would understand what I was getting at, but you evidently lack the apparatus to comprehend. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif that's not nice /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif that's not nice /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you talking from an individual yotties point of view of the colregs
[ QUOTE ]
No matter which side a ship was closing on me in a TSS I'd tend to turn towards
[/ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope so ..... cos its buffoons like you who cause such confusion to others who transit traffic separation schemes /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should spell it out to you in words with few syllables.
DO NOT LET THE CLOSING SHIP BECOME A COLLISION RISK. ALWAYS ASSUME HE HASN'T SEEN YOU.
That clear enough for you??
I thought you would understand what I was getting at, but you evidently lack the apparatus to comprehend. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
its not what you said - if you always tend to turn towards its you who lacks the apparatus to comprehend the colregs and their application /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have spent a lifetime using tss, including the english channel ....... the worst case scenario is the burk who alters when a collision risk doesnt exist and those who are expected to stand on alter their course for no known reason - one then has to double guess if he is going to do something else foolish at the last minute.
and nowadays, so long as you have a radar reflector up and a light to confirm the radar echo at night, there is no reason to think you will not have been seen. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you talking from an individual yotties point of view of the colregs
[ QUOTE ]
No matter which side a ship was closing on me in a TSS I'd tend to turn towards
[/ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope so ..... cos its buffoons like you who cause such confusion to others who transit traffic separation schemes /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should spell it out to you in words with few syllables.
DO NOT LET THE CLOSING SHIP BECOME A COLLISION RISK. ALWAYS ASSUME HE HASN'T SEEN YOU.
That clear enough for you??
I thought you would understand what I was getting at, but you evidently lack the apparatus to comprehend. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
its not what you said - if you always tend to turn towards its you who lacks the apparatus to comprehend the colregs and their application /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have spent a lifetime using tss, including the english channel ....... the worst case scenario is the burk who alters when a collision risk doesnt exist and those who are expected to stand on alter their course for no known reason - one then has to double guess if he is going to do something else foolish at the last minute.
and nowadays, so long as you have a radar reflector up and a light to confirm the radar echo at night, there is no reason to think you will not have been seen. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
bilbobaggins
N/A
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..
[ QUOTE ]
I have spent a lifetime using tss, including the english channel
[/ QUOTE ]
When was the first TSS adopted? Was it only 1972......
I've spent what seems a lifetime in a TSS. Paddling a Telstar 26' trimaran 'northish' across the Off Casquets TSS, with a failed engine, in the greasy windless calm of July 1976 - and visibility of about 60 metres.
..Won't do that again!
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I have spent a lifetime using tss, including the english channel
[/ QUOTE ]
When was the first TSS adopted? Was it only 1972......
I've spent what seems a lifetime in a TSS. Paddling a Telstar 26' trimaran 'northish' across the Off Casquets TSS, with a failed engine, in the greasy windless calm of July 1976 - and visibility of about 60 metres.
..Won't do that again!
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif