I made a serious mistake: I cannot contain myself any further

[tillergirl]

Mytica was actually a bit smaller than than a J&J and had a hand start Stuart. I did Walton-Flushing- Amsterdam- Harwich in her and Ned and Kate did Orwell- Falmouth and return and her present owners have been all over the West Coast of Scotland via the Forth and Clyde Canal.

Dear TG - whatever gives you the idea that I have any money? If I had any, my sailing career would not have been built round whatever was cheap at the time and could be fixed with simple hand tools!

The article clearly thinks that anyone who doesn't lives within 5 minutes must have pots of money. I was just trying to be ironic. You have just described my boating history. I did once buy a new saw though. Having six planks of 1" x 14" iroko to scarf into two gunn'les I though it might be a worthwhile investment.

 

[tillergirl]

Bloody wooden boats. They're as bad as vegans nowadays. Always preaching at us.

Was that you who wrote that 'article'? :disgust:

 

[johnalison]

Was that you who wrote that 'article'? :disgust:

Oh no. I can't write. :ambivalence:

 

[tillergirl]

Oh no. I can't write. :ambivalence:

Oh, yes of course. Silly mistake by me.

 

[jimi]

I've long been of the opinion that most boaty mags don't target boat owners as their market but target wannabe dreamers. Can't remember the last time I had the urge to buy one after scanning the content.

 

[xyachtdave]

I've long been of the opinion that most boaty mags don't target boat owners as their market but target wannabe dreamers. Can't remember the last time I had the urge to buy one after scanning the content.

^^ Correct, and I think I will join TillerGirl for a rant....

Just passed your day skipper? Have a look at this ideal starter boat, 45ft and £250k ex tax and sails/electronics. And you'll need to buy about a grands worth of waterproofs per crew member and dress the back of the boat with a shed load of safety gear. You'll get lost if you don't have chart plotters everywhere, radar and forward facing sonar. Better get a fish finder too. And some flares. And those life tag things, AIS or you'll get hit by a ship.....and crutch straps for your lifejacket!

Don't forget the Dubarry's, a polo shirt with a sail number on it, a baseball hat with a serious offshore race written on it (doesn't matter if you've done it), sunglasses on top of hat and a big chunky tactical sailing watch. Otherwise people will think you don't know what you're doing.

When you're new to this hobby you do tend to buy the magazines and hoover up as much 'knowledge' as you can, magazines were the first point of contact, maybe now this has moved to the internet and forums like YBW.

It takes about 3 years before you realise you're reading the same articles about anchoring, collision regs, basic maintenance etc, along with what can only be described as 'advertising features' about shiny new plastic boats with Ikea interiors. I did buy all the mags but haven't bothered for years now. Time Inc etc know this and cycle the articles accordingly. Very difficult to keep if fresh for the old sea-dogs.

 

[Greg2]

‘........who now owns a BROOM 41 diesel gobbling oil well....’. made me chuckle, particularly as the offending article was read whilst taking a 12 hour flight!

Having previously owned a 41 I can testify to their superb build quality and excellent seakeeping - a serious cruising boat. Didn’t even gobble too much fuel when slipping down the coast at hull speed with the tide and I am fairly confident that our annual carbon footprint was significantly offset by choosing holidays on the boat instead of foreign trips.

Anyway, sorry for the Fred Drift and I acknowledge that wasn’t Tillergirls point - back on topic we enjoy both motor boating and sailing and I would love a classic wooden yacht but have always been put off by the perceived downsides regarding incessant maintenance, including requirements for varnish on tap and a ready supply of timber for replacement planking. Perhaps my perception is wrong?

Got chatting to a chap at SYH last week when we were looking at moorings and he was telling us about his classic woodie. Clearly loves his boat and when I asked about the maintenance he said that he reckoned that what he had spent on her equated to about £1k per year during his ownership. He had bought her in the mid-eighties though so probably a tidy sum overall.

So I guess the question is, how does the upkeep of a wooden boat compare to running a ‘diesel gobbling oil well’?

 

[Kukri]

I’ll take a stab at an answer: the boat in the lower photo in post 14 above averaged £4K pa in total running costs over theee decades (mooring, insurance, paint, surveys, timber and fastenings, new sails, new rigging a rewire, new tanks and plumbing and - much the biggest item - professional surgery on her floors etc when she got to sixty.. But when I sold her she was in much better condition than when I bought her. Total expenditure on new planks £O (teak!).

 

[Greg2]

I’ll take a stab at an answer: the boat in the lower photo in post 14 above averaged £4K pa in total running costs over theee decades (mooring, insurance, paint, surveys, timber and fastenings, new sails, new rigging a rewire, new tanks and plumbing and - much the biggest item - professional surgery on her floors etc when she got to sixty.. But when I sold her she was in much better condition than when I bought her. Total expenditure on new planks £O (teak!).

Well that doesn’t sound too bad, particularly as it includes moorings and insurance.

 

[tillergirl]

‘........who now owns a BROOM 41 diesel gobbling oil well....’. made me chuckle, particularly as the offending article was read whilst taking a 12 hour flight! :
….
So I guess the question is, how does the upkeep of a wooden boat compare to running a ‘diesel gobbling oil well’?

Oh dear I shall give up trying irony and pathos. I was merely trying to underline the 'author's' implication that the running costs of a large twin fast diesel yacht are swamped by wooden boat ownership. The routine maintenance costs of a wooden boat are not excessive. When it is 50 years old some renewal costs are inevitably more than mere maintenance costs. Such as holding tank, calorifer, fridge. The cost of keel bolts can be tiny compared with attending to , say, Westerly bilge keel problems (I am not suggesting Westerly's are bad - I am merely pointing out that the cost of renewal of keel bolts were so low, I always replace the bolts even when seen and found ok.) The thing about wooden boats is a regular maintenance programme. It's a very good idea. I fancied a place in the 'shed' in the yard this winter for the first time. I declined the cost, carrying on my regular practice of all over cover. There are some significant savings with wooden boats - for example dropping the mast every winter means the standing rigging will last as twice as long, and for example all that epoxy tosh. Those savings I invest admittedly into the fabric of the boat.

I shall never try irony or pathos ever again. (oh by the way, not only the article but the whole of the magazine was finished before taxi - and it had several mobo articles - quite useful like 'oh dear I have had to renew the hydraulics cos it is now 3 years old since new - oh dear, I've done it again. Oh dear I have glibly suggested that wooden boat ownership maintenance takes more than plastic ownership. Sorry wooden boat owners.

The point is an article in such a notable magazine as PBO OUGHT to be objective.

 

[Greg2]

Oh dear I shall give up trying irony and pathos. I was merely trying to underline the 'author's' implication that the running costs of a large twin fast diesel yacht are swamped by wooden boat ownership. The routine maintenance costs of a wooden boat are not excessive. When it is 50 years old some renewal costs are inevitably more than mere maintenance costs. Such as holding tank, calorifer, fridge. The cost of keel bolts can be tiny compared with attending to , say, Westerly bilge keel problems (I am not suggesting Westerly's are bad - I am merely pointing out that the cost of renewal of keel bolts were so low, I always replace the bolts even when seen and found ok.) The thing about wooden boats is a regular maintenance programme. It's a very good idea. I fancied a place in the 'shed' in the yard this winter for the first time. I declined the cost, carrying on my regular practice of all over cover. There are some significant savings with wooden boats - for example dropping the mast every winter means the standing rigging will last as twice as long, and for example all that epoxy tosh. Those savings I invest admittedly into the fabric of the boat.

I shall never try irony or pathos ever again. (oh by the way, not only the article but the whole of the magazine was finished before taxi - and it had several mobo articles - quite useful like 'oh dear I have had to renew the hydraulics cos it is now 3 years old since new - oh dear, I've done it again. Oh dear I have glibly suggested that wooden boat ownership maintenance takes more than plastic ownership. Sorry wooden boat owners.

The point is an article in such a notable magazine as PBO OUGHT to be objective.

I did acknowledge that it wasn’t your point so please do keep up with the irony and pathos

Actually, your description of the 41 as ‘diesel gobbling oil well’ was amusing — made me laugh anyway.

I haven’t read the article but I would agree with your point about objectivity and also not making comments that aren’t based upon experience or knowledge. I guess there should be some room for opinion though

 

[Sniper]

As another wooden boat owner, I agree with Minn’s estimate for annual costs - gone up the last two years due to marina berth but that isn’t a wooden boat issue. For me one of the chief benefits of a wooden boat is the ease with which it can be repaired and returned to a ‘good as new’ condition if you are prepared to put the work in. I make no claims to ‘showroom finish’ with my work but a few hours of sanding and painting/varnishing will produce some very satisfactory results which stand the ‘ten foot’ test. I have great respect for those who can produce even better finishes but it is usually directly proportional to effort made rather than money spent. All the technology is very basic and well within many people’s DIY capability but there is a ready supply of suitably skilled and affordable boat repairers around who will do any significant jobs that exceed DIY capability.

For me, the key to owning a wooden boat is as Tiller Girl has suggested - keep on top of the work and it won’t cause you many problems. You don’t need your own boatyard or bottomless pockets.

 

[Concerto]

We all know that GRP and steel boats never need any maintenance. This is very apparent by the number left for months in a boatyard without the sight of any work being done. GRP is impervious to water, although some mention osmosis but no boat has sunk from osmosis. Steel boats can rust slightly, but a new plate welded over the top solves that. That proves all the maintenance on wooden boats is a major effort and costs a lot.

Never owned a wooden yacht but have had wooden dinghies. They were easy to keep respectable with little effort.

For liveaboards they will also find a wooden boat warmer in winter and cooler in summer. No mention of that in the PBO article.

Of the three main materials used for yacht construction, wood will eventually rot away or can be burnt. Steel can rust but needs to be cut up for recyclng. GRP just goes to landfill when no longer wanted.

Finally. Who does not stare in awe at a well preserved wooden boat on the water. They have classic lines and look so different to modern yachts and motorboats. So if you want to be different, get a wooden yacht.

 

[photodog]

A lot of new ones are, built down to a price that raises profits :encouragement:

put in a kitchen,bathroom, two tor three bedrooms ( none can be used at sea ) , a dining area with minimal stowage, then wrap them in thin grp to keep the water out

Works for me.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Works for me.

??

 

[RupertW]

When I was a student I spent a lot of time trying to do up my father's wooden boat. He was not a practical man and did not have the boat surveyed before buying it.

But I learnt a great deal and was able to tackle almost every job with basic tools and materials, from recaulking most of the hull to bowsprit painting, sanding back to bare wood and varnishing, canvas deck repair (learnt that copper nails are nice but will stick through the ceiling of the cabin if they are too long, but also that the ends can be hammered bent into the wood, wood filler applied, whole thing painted and good as new at first glance (and 3 years later)), and that all the odd bits of stray wood around a boat including ill fitting floorboards could actually be the doors to lockers, or the part that makes the table into a berth. Wonderful times, the boat looked a treat in our last season - by far better than any boat he or I have owned since.

And once I started work I was very happy to leave owning a wooden boat until I retired. I will continue to be happy to be on my plastic tat out sailing and exploring looking at beautiful boats, than in their position looking at me.

 

[Daydream believer]

A lot of new ones are, built down to a price that raises profits :encouragement:

put in a kitchen,bathroom, two tor three bedrooms ( none can be used at sea ) , a dining area with minimal stowage, then wrap them in thin grp to keep the water out

People go on about wooden boats as though they are god's gift to society.
Well for thousands of years they were, but there is nothing about later day wooden boats that one cannot do ones' self & I for one am not on awe of the so called skills of the boat builders. In early days with minimal tools - Yes. But in modern days-- No!!
Tucker brown of Burnham were supposed to be a traditional boat builder in wood. But when I shot blasted my last Stella down to bare wood inside & out I was amazed at the worm holes in the wood that were there at manufacture & the repairs in the planks where mistakes had been made. All hidden by paint. It was nothing special & the inside was easy to reproduce in my workshop.

I would have no fear of building one from scratch in my working days (i was a joinery manufacturer so would have had a head start)
All the operations were just simple pieces of construction & the work was nothing different to forming any 3 dimensional component in wood.

As for hull shape & accommodation which people swoon about. It was just a product of the time. If designers had known how to produce the hull shape of today, I bet they would have. They just were unable to do so with the material available, or did not have the knowledge in design & the material for the rig etc.
When Tucker Brown launched the Carter designed "Angel" Sony Cole poo pooed it as a skimming dish. He laughed the other side of his face when it started leaving the opposition behind in its wake.
However, If one looks at a modern GRP yacht, the skill & technical design that goes into it is far better than the amateurish efforts of earlier yacht builders (Westerly comes to mind!!)
Just because the hull is thin does not mean that it does not do its job.
As it is often said " Any fool can design a bridge to stay up- It takes an engineer to design one to just stays up" & that is a bit like modern GRP boat construction
The technology & quality of construction is miles better than the bloke with saw & plane in a damp shed of years ago. I could not build a modern GRP yacht.

The reason you get 2 heads with room for a shower is because you can - simple really.
& the boats serve the market they are built for infinitely better. Spacious, airy, comfortable, dry, warm, good cooking facilities, Excellent accommodation ( I can sleep under way).
What is there in a wooden boat that is better? Do not tell me about deep cockpits- Just heal the boat & that lovely square side becomes a negative wall that pushes your bum to the edge of the seat unless you want to sit leaning forward all day. Then you end up with no support & backache & a pain across your shoulder blades. Shall I go on? I will not mention the endless maintenance- Well some enjoy that & fair doos to them. I can understand that. What I cannot understand is laying in a bunk whilst water drips through the deck on your head.

The modern GRP is streets ahead of the out dated wooden yacht & a lot of them look every bit as good. Does one really think that a lumbering old gaffer is that clever? It is nostalgia, Nothing else. Great in its time but old outdated technology now. Consign them to the bin

 

[oldgit]

All my dads early boats from 1950s were wood, then he went for steel.
Most were working boats, not spare time hobby boats.My Saturday job was applying linseed oil and turpentine to spars cut from a square baulk of wood with an adze, while watching a shipwright repair and build wooden boats,then fill the things with water to tighten them up
Watched the wood rot and the steel corrode over 55 odd years of boating.
Learned a lot from the past and have put it to good use.Its plastic all the way.