I have a TRACTION battery is this the best for services on board?

[trouville]

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif Yesterday i notice a garage had some almost new batteries and bought one for £18 its a 50amp/hr traction battery intended for electric cars and solar energy systems.

The discription is that its intended to give "small" amounts of energy for long periods but not to provide engin starting. This seems perfect for my solar powerd boat!

Are there any special thing i should be aware of as to charging overcharging draining to far? or is it a normal lead acid battery but different?

Its 50amp/hour but a bit larger than a 95amp/hr battery

What is exactly a traction battery??? Seen them often in forklifts etc but never thought i would have one

Should i buy a second one to bring my power system to where i want it or suplyment it with an ordinary 95amphr car battery????

Only use the power for lighting VHF SSB bilge pump and new pressure water system!!!

 

[asj1]

You probably need another one of those to get to anything like the amp-hours you would normally have for domestics plus of course an engine starting battery - which doesn't have to be all that big, ask what battery they would sell for a diesel transit or similiar

 

[Gordonmc]

That's a very good price for traction batteries... the best I have come across.
Construction-wise they are similar to normal car batteries but the plates are thicker and further apart... plus there is a bigger gap between the bottom of the plates and the floor of the cell. They are designed for extreme deep cycling, which means they can be discharged up to 80% without damage.
The downside is they can only be charged and discharged at very low current (ideal for solar trickle charging) but you need additional batteries for engine starting and any heavier domestic use than you have described.
As you have no heavy domestic draw it might be worth getting another traction battery if you have the space and a small cranking battery for the engine. Most starter motors will draw about 150 amps at >12v for a few seconds at a time, so there are a lot of engine-starts in a 95 ahr battery.

 

[Talbot]

It is highly recommended that all the batteries in a bank are the same, otherwise you can have problems with the way that the charging is shared.

 

[boatmike]

Yes but if he has one bank for domestic and another for engine then the engine one needs to be one rated for high cranking loads. The only real argument against using traction batteries for general purpose on a boat is that if you use them for engine starting (even as back up) you will knacker them very quickly. For solely domestic loads though they are ideal but I agree the one he has is not very big.
Certainly if you are going to use tractions for domestic they all should ideally be the same. Don't mix and match as the charging characteristics wont be the same. I am also uncertain how they would perform under high current "smart charging" loads as they are designed to be charged and discharged more slowly I believe.

 

[Superflid]

I've just started up my friend's generator. It has a bank of traction batteries for the 24V starter. No lack of cranking power.

The generator engine is just short of 14 Litres, so some power is needed!

 

[trouville]

They sound fine! How slowly should they be charged? Last year i had only an 18w solar panel which managed untill in september my 75amphr marine battery died,while recharging my potrable telephone??

I had used a lot of lighting and several times it had reached 11 v before the sun?Grey and rain mostly hit the panel.

I have an 85w BP but its a bit big? I intend to buy a 25w panel giveing me 33w total, could i feed all that to a 50amphr Traction battery? or would two in paralel or 100amp hr be better????? Charging wise

The deep cycle sounds just what i need but i dont want to ruin it by over chargeing.

i was useing about 30w/hr for 4/5 hrs per evening which includs the daily bilge pump and telephone recharge

 

[Superflid]

If you are only charging through solar panels you've no need to worry unless you've got enough panels to cover your boat. At the price you've paid I'd buy another, definitly worth it for the extra capacity.

In fact, where are they? I'd buy a couple if they were close enough!

 

[Superflid]

When he bought the generator it had stood unused for a considerable length of time. The battery bank had actually sunk so low that it had reversed it's polarity! We flattened it with a bulb (very little power was in there.....) then charged it from 0V. It's stood for at least six weeks without any charging until I started it today, batteries seem to be holding charge well.

Dorman 6cyl 13.7L, sounds lovley!

 

[trouville]

Sounds great! really just what i need and these are marked sunenshine!!which is the solar mark.

Im not in the UK!! and i found a very very small garage with secondhand batteries. These just came in from someone that had sold an electric car there less than a year old and hardly used he had 3 of which i have one tomorrow i will get a second i hope!!!!!
He thought i hade bought it as a starting battery and gave me free a two year old 95amp/hr i did offer to pay and said i was happy with the traction battery but he let me have it free so tomorrow ill buy another, Seems no one really understood them-hes a really honest garage!! dident know they still existed!!

One left its called "dryfit tracktion block"

 

[Superflid]

"A really honest garage"

Obviously not in the UK then! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[pvb]

Dryfit Traction Block...

Dryfit Traction Blocks are gel batteries, which are sensitive to correct charging voltage. You need to be sure that your charging system is properly regulated otherwise you may damage the batteries.

 

[trouville]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

oh ! all your past posts have been spot on,so thats it a gell battery! shall i drop them over board now or just use them untill they fail?

I Think my Marine battery was gel???Got that from a motor boat that changed every year!!!

Oh well i do have the auto battery 95amp/hr The garage is so helpful even lent me a car without charge! the tank was just under half ful so i filled it but he dident expect that!! Thank goodness for small villages

I wont take them back although im sure he would give me a refund he realised there not for cars so i expect he will keep the last one or two if i dont buy a second tomorrow i dident say anything yet--pity but how can i charge a gelly battery????

 

[pvb]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

Gel batteries are fine - you just have to treat them properly. If you're charging by solar panels, you might need a regulator. Check with the supplier of your solar panels.

 

[trouville]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

i never use a regulator since one melted!! Was almost dangerous. As im always on board when my solar panels in service i check the voltage and if the battery gets to 14v or a bit less take off the panel charge, regulators restrict the voltage which is 22v!!

Does it matter if 30w or 2.5amps are the charging rate? Or 7 amps with the BP? would that be to much ?

How many amps do car battery chargers provide? That is a small very ordinary car one?

I bought him a good bottle or wine but being France i dident think it would be apreciated perhaps the wrong wine? so i drank it! Silly of me to buy wine for a French person!!! Was very good though! Now i just hope that a French girl dosent change her plans !!!!

 

[Superflid]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

From the FAQ at http://www.sonnenschein.org/Really%20FAQ's.htm

(Sonnenschein are the manufacturers of the Dryfit batteries).

Q.
" military handbook from Sonnenschein says that slow charge rate is no good for all batteries including their Gel Cells. They recommend to use the maximum (allowable) charge voltage of 14,4 Volts in order to get high charge currents for maximum number of charge/discharge cycles".

A.
That is quite correct in our experience, at a temperature around 68F.


At £18 a time I'd connect up the solar panels and not worry........

 

[trouville]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

14.4v s fine with a solar panel the battery arrives at any voltage if left for long enough and the battery new and willing!!

My panels charge at 22v for the BP the same for the simens 18w though since it went overboard and stayed down in i think 12m for a few days it now gives 18/19v
the new one i havent bought yet gives 21v all about the same hope that will be ok!

I really like the idea or real deep charge (i hope) batteries as with so much winter---why do we have winters??? why not 12 months summer?? solar panels deliver less power when the poor on board need more!!!

OK ill go and buy the second one tommorw he wants 160Ffr the euro dosent count in the villages!!ill pay in euros 25euros

The wine knocked me flat! hope a female dosent visit or that twice!!

Indeed for the price there great by tomorrow perhaps there will be other advice but 14.4v is near enough for the solar panells ?and if others can be brought back from 0v the no very bent plates and continued use also with more room under the plate more room for the oxide deposits sounds ahhhh gell the oxide cant fall off---ohhh

Is the consensus to buy or not to buy? thats the question

 

[William_H]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

The comments about solar panel voltage can be misleading. The solar panels indeed give around 20 volts with no load no connection. What is far more important is the current they deliver into your battery. You cannot easily equate 12 volts divided into the wattage. In fact the wattage rating tends to be related to the open circuit voltage so a 20 watt panel gives usually about 1 amp ie 20watts/20v not the 20w/12volts 1.6 amps you might expect.
The outcome of the high voltage is only that once your battery has reached 14volts inherent voltage (when a regulated charger or alternator will reduce charge) the solar panel will continue to charge because there is still a 6 volt excess the panel is potentially able to deliver.
A regulator for solar should more accurately be described as a regulator for the battery in that it will begin to waste current as the battery tries to exceed about 14 volts. For most batteries however a smallish charge current forced in even when the battery is charged will not harm it. ie 1 amp into a 50AH or more battery for 8hrs per day will not boil too much water off in ovecharge. It is easy with wet cells that you know if you are giving too much charge because you need to replace water more often.
However gell batteries are more susceptible to damage from overcharge and you cannot replenish the water.
So trouville if you have more than 10 watts of solar then suggest another battery as this will share/ reduce the charge current. If you have more than 20 watts solar then you need a regulator even with 2 gell batteries.
Of course you don't need to worry too much until the sun comes out. (next summer) If you don't want/have a regulator you could simply leave a small wattage light burning ie 6 watts on 24hrs/7 will soak up the power of about 20 watts of solar reducing battery overcharge problem. If you are not using power for other services.

Now someone asked about the charging current capability of cheap battery chargers. It varies of course. The rating on the charger will give a max rate usually into a fully discharged battery. The actual current into your typical half charged battery should be measured but typically might be half of the charger rating. A cheap crude charger uses a rectifier to get DC from the AC 50 hertz wave out of the transformer. This means voltage and current rise and fall at 50 times per second. This can be good in that a higher voltage will force more current into the battery when it's voltage is up giving a faster charge but the average voltage/current is not so high.
It does mean however that the current falls only a little as the battery reaches full charge and it is capable of overcharge. So you must turn it off at an appropriate time. Because you want to know average charge current you must use an ampmeter with a moving pointer. The mass of the pointer etc. averages out the 50 hertz pulses while an electronic digital meter will often not be able to cope with the rapid variations. As soon as you get into automatic chargers then all these comments become not applicable.
get an ampmeter it tells you more than voltmeter. regards olewill

 

[trouville]

Re: Dryfit Traction Block...

Could i use the 25w panel to charge providing i moniter the battery voltage? Generaly it gets quickly to 13.x v where it stays depending on how discharged it was for 6 to 8 hours befor reaching 13.9v/14.(under .2)

Question:would a 25w panel ruin a gell battrey? (becouse it cannot loose water???)
To charge at just 10w would not keep the battery up to my daily power needs

Secondly i can only charge during daylight hours.

If i were to use my 85w panel to directly charge a gell battery while useing services ie fridge (theory) if the load were to be removed for 10/20 mins would the battery be damaged??

In reality i leave my 18w directly attached 24hrs except in winter when i disconect it when it falls below 12/14v (panel output) late afternoon and that has in the med kept a wet lead acid in good order for 8 years i think, lasted a very long time

In Sweden the same aproch found the battery with just 3v by september on a battery marine battery then almost 2 years old

How are gell battersy charged?? There used for solar instalations and electric car the latter need to be able to recharge fairly quickly???