I hate to do this...but

SolentBoy said:
, so there is little point beating up some local supplier without a well founded case surely?
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I agree that it is unfair that the local suppliers ends up in the firing line on this but that's just the way it is. The fault rests with Rocna, not us, the end users, who have mistakenly bought a probably defective product.

However, I'm not sure how much more evidence you want to see to make a "well founded case". If the evidence that has now been bought forward is not overwhelming, how much more do you think is needed? The reality is that Rocna should be making a product recall.

The Rocna warranty is clear. If the product is below spec. it will be replaced or refunded (and the end user determines which option to go for). We all know what the legal position, over and above the warranty, is.
 
Solent,
Firstly it is worth trying and see what Piplers say. If this fails ask for a written money back guarantee from them that they will refund your money if they are selling products that are not as described. Suggest trading standards to them as a last resort and I believe you will get somewhere or at least you will find their stance on this matter.

Rigger,
I to can see it going this way as well if they do ever bother to answer.
 
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Craig,

I can see that, at the moment, you are reading this thread.

Don't you think that it is time that the Smith's made some kind of statement about what is hasppening? You've never been slow at coming forward before.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Craig,

I can see that, at the moment, you are reading this thread.

Don't you think that it is time that the Smith's made some kind of statement about what is hasppening? You've never been slow at coming forward before.
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Speaking as a Rocna owner and someone who has been positive about your previous posts Craig, I agree with Rigger. After years of commenting about anchors, we now have something which is a genuine concern. Your input would obviously be valuable.

Richard
 
I agree Craig,
If you have something to hide and want to stay silence then that is up to you.
If you have been decieved then you should say so. There is no credibility for you when you stay quiet.
 
I'm not going to pursue the points made about my post #430 by Delfin, because that would appear to be an attack on Fortress, which is most definitely not my intention. Suffice to say that I stand by every word I wrote in that post. I am simply attempting to bring a sense of perspective to the strength argument.

The impromptu hardness measurement by Delfin is valuable and was suggested by me several hundred posts ago, and probably by others too. There is no argument that the 'sub-standard' Rocnas will be softer than NZ production ones, and almost certainly than Manson, Delta and many others. The question remains, how important is this in terms of anchoring stresses?

Perhaps someone can carry out this small test, again in the interests of proportion. Repeat Delfin's test on a link of anchor chain, 8 or 10 mm. I would do it myself but I am confined to bed/wheelchair for the forseeable future. Any Grade 30 chain will indent to a greater extent than his test. I guess that a Grade 40 will probably indent about the same and I doubt that many use a higher grade than that.

Anybody can tell that the cross-sectional area of the two wires comprising a link of chain is considerably less than the cross-sectional area of an anchor shank that would be used with that chain. So what does this tell us? In tension the chain will break long before the shank does. The shank on material that represents what seems to have been used in the 'sub-standard' Rocna will bend at about 66% of the fracture load of DIN 766 chain, based upon some information that I have received privately.

I will also suggest that the hardness of many older, welded anchors of the Danforth type will also have similar hardnesses. Any weldable steel will be similar, unless of the far more expensive Bisplate type. Many on these forums swear by their Danforths, so are they in reality dangerous?

Once again, I am not defending Rocna's use of this material, nor am I saying that anchors whose shanks bend are a good thing, albeit under what must have been quite unusual circumstances. I am simply trying to pacify the hysteria that seems to have developed.
 
RichardS said:
Speaking as a Rocna owner and someone who has been positive about your previous posts Craig, I agree with Rigger. After years of commenting about anchors, we now have something which is a genuine concern. Your input would obviously be valuable.

Richard
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I think he'd be mad to be lured back into the bear pit. He no longer even works for the firm. All he'd get is a ton of abuse.

My bet is he won't fall for such obvious bait.

There's nothing to stop Rocna owners or potential customers contacting Rocna directly. The fact they're not doing so suggests that the aim here is to lure/troll Craig back onto YBW, not to establish facts.
 
Nostrodamus said:
There is no credibility for you when you stay quiet.
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There's certainly no credibility in joining an internet bun fight. I'm sure Rocna are happy to answer any specific questions in a less confrontational environment.

Have you contacted them with any specific questions?
 
I have been looking at the post Grant made in respect of the website.
From what I can see it goes on and on about certification implying that Rocna have this but it is now know that they do not have full certification. Presumably they are only putting it on their site as a marketing ploy. It also begs the question “Why haven’t they got certification when all the other manufactures seem to have. There are pages and pages on a certification they have not got.
The other thing I find strange is on Peter Smiths website which states

“Take care to investigate claims by anchor manufacturers with regard to “HHP” or “SHHP” classification if it is not accompanied by reference to society certification. At least one Australian manufacturer for example claims SHHP status for their anchors which on investigation is found to be simply “certification” from a local testing company. Such a claim is disingenious at best”.

Is he referring to his own anchor or has he been kept in the dark over certification about his own anchor by others??????
 
Mark-1 said:
I think he'd be mad to be lured back into the bear pit. He no longer even works for the firm. All he'd get is a ton of abuse.
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I very much doubt that he's get any abuse, though he might find the posts in which he claimed that Manson used inferior materials quoted at him for further comment.

There's nothing to stop Rocna owners or potential customers contacting Rocna directly. The fact they're not doing so suggests that the aim here is to lure/troll Craig back onto YBW, not to establish facts.
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You miss an important point which is that, unlike Fortresses, SARCAs and Mansons, Rocna anchors are not made by their designer. Although - and despite his "affiliated" claim - Craig does not speak for the manufacturing company, he does speak for the designer. It would be invaluable to know whether he sees a 50% reduction in strength of the shank material as compromising the design.

It may be that he does not. Perhaps the original specification was belt-and-braces and can safely be relaxed with experience. Perhaps a tougher but weaker steel is now seen as better for the application.

We can't expect Holdfast to answer this, but it's something the designer should do if he wishes to distinguish Rocna-the-design from Rocna-the-product or Rocna-the-production-run.

Having spent years defending Rocna-the-design - and attacking other anchor manufacturers - Craig's silence now is actively harming the brand. It is perhaps ironic that he seems unable or unwilling to take advantage of his dissociation from Holdfast at just the time when such independence would be a huge advantage.
 
Ubergeekian said:
Craig's silence now is actively harming the brand.
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No it isn't. Anyone who wants Craig's opinion can ask him. (I'll tell you now that Craigs opinion and Holdfast's will be that every Rocnas are strong enough! Even the stainless ones.)

The best thing Craig can do is to keep quiet which is what people have been urging him to do for as long as I can remember. Rejoining a flamewar is the last thing he should do.
 
Mark-1 said:
I'll tell you now that Craigs opinion and Holdfast's will be that every Rocnas are strong enough! Even the stainless ones.
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If they think that then they are fools.

It's like paying for an Aston Martin, and discovering that the tyres are low grade remoulds only to be told "They're fine. You're shouldn't be going over 70mph"
If they state that the product is made from a particular steel grade then it should be.

In answer to your suggestion that Rocna would answer questions, I can assure you that that is not my experience. My notes to them were answered with waffle and unwarranted, unsolicited allegations about ex-employees. Requests for information have been stonewalled. I am awaiting an answer at the moment, but don't expect one.
 
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Rigger Mortice said:
If they think that then they are fools.
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If they say on YBW their anchors are strong enough, their critics call them fools. If they say on YBW they're not strong enough and the press got hold of it they never sell an anchor again.

Better not to post anything on YBW and talk to customers through the numerous other channels.
 
Mark 1

One of the numerous other channels would be the distributors - has anyone heard them express an opinion. Nostrodamus has expressed an comment they he has friends who are concerned - how does Rocna contact them?

Rocna does not register every customer, and neither does the retailer.

It is not the customer's responsibility to ask for assurance but the suppliers - so how do the suppliers get the message across. You say, not the forums - so what are you recommending they do, sky writing, fortune tellers? Most of the customers do not even know they need to ask the question - and no-one, or very few, question their anchors performance until its too late.
 
Mark-1 said:
If they say on YBW their anchors are strong enough, their critics call them fools. If they say on YBW they're not strong enough and the press got hold of it they never sell an anchor again.

Better not to post anything on YBW and talk to customers through the numerous other channels.
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I'm not sure why you are defending them.
It's clear that they have substandard product out in the market. In not addressing the problem they are simply adding to the problem. It's for that very reason that reputable manufacturers address these problems "head on"....with explanations and product recalls as appropriate. Any reputable manufacturer would do so.

Whether they like it or not many of their customers are here, talking to them, on YBW, AS and several other forums around the world. It's the way of these things.
In any event there is no evidence that they are talking to customers "through the numerous other channels".
 
Rigger Mortice said:
I agree that it is unfair that the local suppliers ends up in the firing line on this but that's just the way it is. The fault rests with Rocna, not us, the end users, who have mistakenly bought a probably defective product.

However, I'm not sure how much more evidence you want to see to make a "well founded case". If the evidence that has now been bought forward is not overwhelming, how much more do you think is needed? The reality is that Rocna should be making a product recall.

The Rocna warranty is clear. If the product is below spec. it will be replaced or refunded (and the end user determines which option to go for). We all know what the legal position, over and above the warranty, is.
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Can you be specific then please?

I am happy to call them and say that my anchor is not up to standard. They are going to ask me why, and I will have to give them a reason. They will obviously use this reason to get a refund from. What document do I send to Piplers? I can hardly ask them to read this thread!
 
SolentBoy said:
What document do I send to Piplers? I can hardly ask them to read this thread!
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Maybe that's what you should do? Pressure from the agents may be a way to extract a statement from Rocna.

Interesting post arrived recently on AS. Apparently a new West Marine outlet in his home town is not displaying any Rocnas, but they are listed in their catalogue. Significant?
 
Mark-1 said:
I'm not.
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There are numerous people on this thread who have asked Craig to give his thoughts on what has happened.
Everytime someone asked him to say something you seem to post telling him he would be a fool to answer anything or come back into the forum. This has happened on numerous occsions.
Craig is obviously intrested in this thread as he is often reading it.
My personal opinion is that he may have been decieved as much as anyone else but we would like to hear his side.
Don't you want to hear his side or do you know something we dont?
 
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