Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Oh dear. There go my shackles, my bow roller, my pulpit, my...
I hate to do this...but
- Thread starter macd
- Start date
Oh dear. There go my shackles, my bow roller, my pulpit, my...
Sybaris
Well-Known Member
Absurd statement.
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Duty of care
If I am on a yacht and the anchor fails and causes me 'damage' and that anchor is shown not to meet specification and the owner knew that it did not meet specification then the owner of the vessel is liable under tort. The owner of a vessel has a responsibility to his crew, or passengers, his responsibility covers having a craft with the correct safety equipment. Equally if that anchor fails and the yacht carrying the anchor that did not meet specification damages my vessel then I suspect the insurance company might not cover the owner's costs if it is shown he knew, or should have known, the anchor did not meet specification.
You are the skipper - you are responsible (totally).
If you do not like the responsibility - give up sailing.
If I am on a yacht and the anchor fails and causes me 'damage' and that anchor is shown not to meet specification and the owner knew that it did not meet specification then the owner of the vessel is liable under tort. The owner of a vessel has a responsibility to his crew, or passengers, his responsibility covers having a craft with the correct safety equipment. Equally if that anchor fails and the yacht carrying the anchor that did not meet specification damages my vessel then I suspect the insurance company might not cover the owner's costs if it is shown he knew, or should have known, the anchor did not meet specification.
You are the skipper - you are responsible (totally).
If you do not like the responsibility - give up sailing.
Nostrodamus
Well-Known Member
On the evidence given are Rocna anchors dangerous or below the standards that should be used for an anchor.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Cobblers. What matters is whether the anchor is suitable for the boat and for the conditions, not whether it met a manufacturer's specification.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
It's not at all that simple. If you substitute "could be liable" for the words "is liable", then the text starts to bear more relationship to reality. Many other factors are considered in determining tort liability. Where passengers or crew members are concerned, a lot depends on what basis they were on board. The owner of the vessel has a generally greater responsibility towards paying passengers, than towards paid or unpaid crew.
Another factor which is considered is what other circumstances contributed to the accident. Did a crew member rig the anchor improperly or misuse it? Was he, against the skipper's orders and without his knowledge, trying to set it in rocks by backing down at high speed with slack in the chain? Was there are freak storm which was beyond the design specifications of the ground tackle? Did the anchor really fail because the steel was weaker than specified, and would it have failed even if the steel was as strong as specified? Did the buyer actually rely on the manufacturer's spec when he bought the anchor, or would he have bought it even if the manufacturer's spec been different? (When I bought my Rocna, I did not investigate what kind of steel it was made out of, and I suspect very few buyers bought their Rocnas because they thought they were made of high strength steel.) Did the owner reasonably believe that the anchor was strong enough, even if he knew that it did not meet the manufacturer's spec?
I could go on and on. It's complicated enough that it is not a good idea to try to formulate it in such simplistic terms.
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Dockhead
Well-Known Member
Possibly true. The manufacturer's specification may or may not be relevant. If the anchor is strong enough at a lower specification, and the manufacturer's specification is gilding the lily, that is, some kind of propaganda without any real effect on anchor performance -- then you are exactly right. And that may very well be the case here. Probably, I would say, this is the case here.
On the other hand, if the difference in strength between the manufacturer's spec and the real spec of the steel involved makes the difference between the anchor's holding up under normal use or failure, and if the person buying the anchor relied on the manufacturer's spec in making his decision, and the anchor does actually fail under conditions where an anchor made to the manufacturer's spec would not have failed, then there might be liability.
GrantKing
Well-Known Member
The designer specified a certain metal grade eg. bis80 or equivalent for the anchor to maintain the strength needed for the shank size and design.
The sizing charts then recommend a particular size for each size vessel. Due to the superior holding power and blade size of the design it meant that you could fit a smaller anchor weight than you previously used.
An engineer in Hastings was commisioned by CNC to compare the maximum forces on a bis80(800mpa) shank and a 450mpa shank for a 20kg and a 33kg anchor.
His report has been sent to me by CNC.
(1) Press force to deform into a 150mm v block
20kg: bis80 9.93Ton 450 : 5.58Ton
33kg: bis80 10.95Ton 450 : 6.16Ton
(2) The maximum force to apply at 90 degrees to the shank before bending
20kg : bis80 640kg 450 : 360kg
33kg : bis80 564kg 450 : 317kg
This clearly illustrates the difference between the 2 materials.
CONGO
Active Member
Dujbangi
Rex here, many of you may not realize the onus now put on everybody when it comes to anything, regardless of what it is and what it relates to, we are all held personally responsible for whatever we do, that is the way of the forever changing world so I would suggest before anyone is prepared to say to Dujbangi’s statement, absurd, check your up to date rules.
If your boat is washed up onto the rocks, property damage or loss of Life, an investigation will be carried out whether you like it or not to see if anyone through sheer negligence was responsible, if the anchor drags simply because it would not hold, if weather conditions prevent proper laying of the anchor, shank snapped as the anchor was old, chain tangled excetra ,excetra, no big deal, there are many, many, things that can result in anchors dragging and many things judged on negligence but make no mistake the purpose of this investigation is to prevent the same thing from happening again.
As a skipper or owner of a boat you are required to have an anchor that is of correct weight and size for the boat in question, recently here in Australia, it must also be a proven brand or design. If it is certified with High Holding power you are allowed a reduction in weight, if it is certified with Super High Holding Power, you are allowed a further reduction in weight.
USL code or Lloyd’s specs govern these rules, they specify for the boat in question for private use, then under survey it all changes again, you are required to have an anchor that is of reasonable working condition, and recognized design, silly really as the recognized design could have been made in china, that’s O.K. simply because it hasn’t been proven to be faulty, the big catch, try telling your insurance company or a law court that your anchor has bent the shank and rendered the anchor useless, as a result of this the anchor dragged and caused loss of life, property.
All’s going well for you as you have complied with all of their requirements but, one of the insurance guys says well weren’t you deploying one of those rickety anchor thin go’s, we have reason to believe that you knew that these anchors to be of inconsistent steel properties and have not been tested beyond doubt, they are indeed not safe to use, furthermore it has been found that these anchors had they have been proof tested would not have supported the minimum requirement of that of a proven design. You may say well there is no proof of this, yes but when it comes to safety and it is public knowledge that the anchors in question have been proven to be constructed out of defective materials.
Then it is also accepted that these anchors will not take basic loads, that would be the judgment and unfortunately you knew of this. Try getting out of that one; it’s certainly not fiction but could possibly be fact.
We are just about to send a load of anchors into the U.K. guess what your government has categorized our anchors under, (Safety equipment) so before you say *******s, and absurd, for your own sake if you own a rickety anchor, then check yourself to see where you stand with the law and insurance based on now what has become public proven knowledge..
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
Rex here, many of you may not realize the onus now put on everybody when it comes to anything, regardless of what it is and what it relates to, we are all held personally responsible for whatever we do, that is the way of the forever changing world so I would suggest before anyone is prepared to say to Dujbangi’s statement, absurd, check your up to date rules.
If your boat is washed up onto the rocks, property damage or loss of Life, an investigation will be carried out whether you like it or not to see if anyone through sheer negligence was responsible, if the anchor drags simply because it would not hold, if weather conditions prevent proper laying of the anchor, shank snapped as the anchor was old, chain tangled excetra ,excetra, no big deal, there are many, many, things that can result in anchors dragging and many things judged on negligence but make no mistake the purpose of this investigation is to prevent the same thing from happening again.
As a skipper or owner of a boat you are required to have an anchor that is of correct weight and size for the boat in question, recently here in Australia, it must also be a proven brand or design. If it is certified with High Holding power you are allowed a reduction in weight, if it is certified with Super High Holding Power, you are allowed a further reduction in weight.
USL code or Lloyd’s specs govern these rules, they specify for the boat in question for private use, then under survey it all changes again, you are required to have an anchor that is of reasonable working condition, and recognized design, silly really as the recognized design could have been made in china, that’s O.K. simply because it hasn’t been proven to be faulty, the big catch, try telling your insurance company or a law court that your anchor has bent the shank and rendered the anchor useless, as a result of this the anchor dragged and caused loss of life, property.
All’s going well for you as you have complied with all of their requirements but, one of the insurance guys says well weren’t you deploying one of those rickety anchor thin go’s, we have reason to believe that you knew that these anchors to be of inconsistent steel properties and have not been tested beyond doubt, they are indeed not safe to use, furthermore it has been found that these anchors had they have been proof tested would not have supported the minimum requirement of that of a proven design. You may say well there is no proof of this, yes but when it comes to safety and it is public knowledge that the anchors in question have been proven to be constructed out of defective materials.
Then it is also accepted that these anchors will not take basic loads, that would be the judgment and unfortunately you knew of this. Try getting out of that one; it’s certainly not fiction but could possibly be fact.
We are just about to send a load of anchors into the U.K. guess what your government has categorized our anchors under, (Safety equipment) so before you say *******s, and absurd, for your own sake if you own a rickety anchor, then check yourself to see where you stand with the law and insurance based on now what has become public proven knowledge..
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
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Duty of care
I bow to my learned friends.
The anchors, some at least, in question have been shown to have been made from a steel below the specification quoted by the anchor maker. Anchors are considered, at least by some, to be a safety device.
Would you buy a safety device, call it a life jacket, or an EPIRB, from a manufacturer who has been shown to manufacture their product outside their own specifications?
Currently we have one test, or a test of 2 items, that show the anchor manufacturer has 'cut corners'. Can you imagine a Tort lawyer rubbing his hands when he is presented with a case where the shank tore out of the fluke. Currently we do not know - and it might be absurd, but would you take that risk? Cut one corner, why not a few more.
You are the skipper, you are responsible (not the crew member, paid or otherwise etc etc) - you knew the specification was questionable but still you used the anchor. You assumed the manufacturer only cut one corner? Not sure that that would stand up - you are clever and intelligent - you must be, you have the yacht - I suspect the lawyer would suggest you should have thought beyond the hype.
It might be Tort is not too big a problem in the Eastern Med, but I would not take that risk in America or the UK. Again maybe absurd - but I would not want to lose my yacht in loyalty to a questionable manufacturer.
When it is proven that the 2 anchors in questiion were the only 2 and that no other corners were cut - you can all relax, in between times I would be watching the forums, some parts of the legal profession might be eyeing all of this with some hunger.
But discussing legal niceties, of which I know little, is detracting from the central issue - so with some excuses (having raised the question for those few to consider) I'll bow it (of the potential legalities - sorry to have mentioned it).
Have a great day.
I bow to my learned friends.
The anchors, some at least, in question have been shown to have been made from a steel below the specification quoted by the anchor maker. Anchors are considered, at least by some, to be a safety device.
Would you buy a safety device, call it a life jacket, or an EPIRB, from a manufacturer who has been shown to manufacture their product outside their own specifications?
Currently we have one test, or a test of 2 items, that show the anchor manufacturer has 'cut corners'. Can you imagine a Tort lawyer rubbing his hands when he is presented with a case where the shank tore out of the fluke. Currently we do not know - and it might be absurd, but would you take that risk? Cut one corner, why not a few more.
You are the skipper, you are responsible (not the crew member, paid or otherwise etc etc) - you knew the specification was questionable but still you used the anchor. You assumed the manufacturer only cut one corner? Not sure that that would stand up - you are clever and intelligent - you must be, you have the yacht - I suspect the lawyer would suggest you should have thought beyond the hype.
It might be Tort is not too big a problem in the Eastern Med, but I would not take that risk in America or the UK. Again maybe absurd - but I would not want to lose my yacht in loyalty to a questionable manufacturer.
When it is proven that the 2 anchors in questiion were the only 2 and that no other corners were cut - you can all relax, in between times I would be watching the forums, some parts of the legal profession might be eyeing all of this with some hunger.
But discussing legal niceties, of which I know little, is detracting from the central issue - so with some excuses (having raised the question for those few to consider) I'll bow it (of the potential legalities - sorry to have mentioned it).
Have a great day.
CONGO
Active Member
Ripped off
You know there are a lot more than just C.S. that should be answering to your debarkle, I am talking the guys that bought your rickety anchor in good faith believing it was a lot more than it has turned out to be, basically many of you have been had by C.S. and many of you have been had by your dealer, like it or lump it. It is amazing when a gravy train comes roaring through no one cares about the guy supplying the fuel for that train.
Whilst some of you will shrug it off, there will be many that won’t and will feel totally ripped of whether they were lucky enough to score a quality Rickety or a not so lucky and have one with hidden flaws only to be revealed when they break or bend easily.
When we set up a new dealer they will ask, why should we sell your anchor. We give them the speal and then they want in hard copy proof of what we preach, that is just a standard request so as their customers get what we say and value for money.
I do not believe that your dealers had not realized something was on the nose, that gravy train was presented to them rather than fact and that old train just kept right on going at your expense.
So if I was one of you guys that are having problems feeling ripped off, then go see your friendly dealer, he – them obviously did not have your best interest at heart, readily accepted your money to keep that train running.
Then it is time for him to now except a return of the so called elite and give your money back, if they refuse then take it to your local ombudsman and watch the sparks fly.
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
You know there are a lot more than just C.S. that should be answering to your debarkle, I am talking the guys that bought your rickety anchor in good faith believing it was a lot more than it has turned out to be, basically many of you have been had by C.S. and many of you have been had by your dealer, like it or lump it. It is amazing when a gravy train comes roaring through no one cares about the guy supplying the fuel for that train.
Whilst some of you will shrug it off, there will be many that won’t and will feel totally ripped of whether they were lucky enough to score a quality Rickety or a not so lucky and have one with hidden flaws only to be revealed when they break or bend easily.
When we set up a new dealer they will ask, why should we sell your anchor. We give them the speal and then they want in hard copy proof of what we preach, that is just a standard request so as their customers get what we say and value for money.
I do not believe that your dealers had not realized something was on the nose, that gravy train was presented to them rather than fact and that old train just kept right on going at your expense.
So if I was one of you guys that are having problems feeling ripped off, then go see your friendly dealer, he – them obviously did not have your best interest at heart, readily accepted your money to keep that train running.
Then it is time for him to now except a return of the so called elite and give your money back, if they refuse then take it to your local ombudsman and watch the sparks fly.
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
Nostrodamus
Well-Known Member
Saved by the bell?
I have a confession I need to get off my chest. I wanted an anchor and speaking to other people they suggested Rocna’s were good anchors and dug in well. The sales pitch on their site is inviting to anyone that had not read these threads.
My confession is that I asked the local chandlery to order one!!!
Then I saw the test results on the Rocna on Manson’s site and was trying to think how to tell the chandlery that I had changed my mind. Luckily they got back to me and said that they could not get one for over a month so I cancelled the order. This also led me to think are they bad at importing the anchors, is there a very large demand or is production changing for some reason which will cause a delay?
Now I am in a dilemma as to which anchor to choose again but also feel I may have been saved by the bell?
I have a confession I need to get off my chest. I wanted an anchor and speaking to other people they suggested Rocna’s were good anchors and dug in well. The sales pitch on their site is inviting to anyone that had not read these threads.
My confession is that I asked the local chandlery to order one!!!
Then I saw the test results on the Rocna on Manson’s site and was trying to think how to tell the chandlery that I had changed my mind. Luckily they got back to me and said that they could not get one for over a month so I cancelled the order. This also led me to think are they bad at importing the anchors, is there a very large demand or is production changing for some reason which will cause a delay?
Now I am in a dilemma as to which anchor to choose again but also feel I may have been saved by the bell?
Nostrodamus
Well-Known Member
So how come the Aussies and Kiwis make such good anchors?
I blame our forefathers who sent them across there in balls and chains which through natural evolution developed into anchors and chains.
I blame our forefathers who sent them across there in balls and chains which through natural evolution developed into anchors and chains.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
For some inscrutable reason, all of the new gen anchors are hard to get in the UK. I waited months for my Rocna last year, and I actually chose the Rocna because it was much easier to get than the others. The Manson had to be ordered directly from NZ at huge cost and with a long wait. The Spade from Jersey, at even huger cost. The Rocna was the most realistic in terms of cost and delivery. Even so, it took months and repeated delays.
I think it's a combination of large demand and very poor distribution.
The dealer itself, however -- Pipler's of Poole -- were great. Very helpful and communicative.
Conachair
Guest
In cruising circles all the new gen are popular, lots of rocnas, manson & spades, some bugals for the germans.
Everyone loves all of them.
Anchors have a very strong habit of not breaking, if anything goes it will be more likely to be a connector. http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226260
An anchor is just one element of the system, it's the weakest link that should be of concern, rarely if ever will that be the anchor itself.
Nice big snubber helps lots, those dynamic loads are vicious.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Err - I got my Spade in three days from clicking the mouse. Fox's online, delivered by Parcel Farce from Jersey.
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anchored in the Lucky Country
Its part of the insurance policy and natural selection, once you are anchored firmly there is no way you can be sent back. There have been a few throw backs - apparently if you do not use local Ozy steel the links can break and even if you do not end up in the clanger your future is like a west coast morning, bleak.
But there is hope for the rest of us- as long as your yacht is not too big and you have an accomodating partner you can actually get decent antipodean anchors into your luggage within the allowance - though you do need to forgo much in the way of clothing - but who needs many clothes on Bondi Beach! If you have a bigger yacht - you'll be travelling business class anyway - and you can thus carry the bigger anchor. I anticipate special deals, buy a guaranteed return (they will not want us overstaying the welcome) ticket for 2 and get a new anchor delivered to your Oz address, ready packed for airfreight - with a certificate stating 'trial, safety device' to minimise opportunity for imposition of VAT. We did it, excluding the VAT cert, it can work.
But there is a query how come the Antipodeans took over from the Scots. Its all Anzac, but maybe its getting near the 25th.
Lest we forget.
Its part of the insurance policy and natural selection, once you are anchored firmly there is no way you can be sent back. There have been a few throw backs - apparently if you do not use local Ozy steel the links can break and even if you do not end up in the clanger your future is like a west coast morning, bleak.
But there is hope for the rest of us- as long as your yacht is not too big and you have an accomodating partner you can actually get decent antipodean anchors into your luggage within the allowance - though you do need to forgo much in the way of clothing - but who needs many clothes on Bondi Beach! If you have a bigger yacht - you'll be travelling business class anyway - and you can thus carry the bigger anchor. I anticipate special deals, buy a guaranteed return (they will not want us overstaying the welcome) ticket for 2 and get a new anchor delivered to your Oz address, ready packed for airfreight - with a certificate stating 'trial, safety device' to minimise opportunity for imposition of VAT. We did it, excluding the VAT cert, it can work.
But there is a query how come the Antipodeans took over from the Scots. Its all Anzac, but maybe its getting near the 25th.
Lest we forget.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Was the gent serious? I planned to bring a very small Danforth back from southern France, but concluded it might be regarded as suspect, sitting in my hand-luggage on the plane...
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Suspect
As a Gentleman, quite serious, no-one batted an eyelid, but it was in checked in luggage. I could not suggest taking one as carry on luggage, too heavy in any event.
Mind you, you can carry more clothes if you went to America and bought a Fortress, but that's another story. I understand they are used by the Navy or something, and not one of which I have any experiance.
As a Gentleman, quite serious, no-one batted an eyelid, but it was in checked in luggage. I could not suggest taking one as carry on luggage, too heavy in any event.
Mind you, you can carry more clothes if you went to America and bought a Fortress, but that's another story. I understand they are used by the Navy or something, and not one of which I have any experiance.
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Venice Lagoon
Readers with an ability to rememberl back to mid April, many posts ago, might recall an image of a bent Rocna, se Delfin No 130, 13th April. We were advised this was an anchor used in Venice Lagoon.
The owner reported that the anchor was a 20kg Rocna and the vessel a 49' Bavaria. Cruising weight would be about 13t. The anchor was set using 35m of 10mm chain in 7.5m of water. Maximum wind was 20 knots, seabed sand. To me 10mm chain and a 20kg anchor look a bit wimpy for a Bav 49, but I checked and have been told this is about correct. The yacht was anchored 2nm offhsore (seems a long way - but that's what the owner said).
The owner implied the anchor bent on retrieval.
You might also recall that a 450MPa steel shank for a 20kg anchor will deform under a 90 degree load at about 360kg (Bis80, ASTM 514A, 800MPa at about 640kg) and that Manson found steel shank quality of one of the anchors they tested as 464MPa.
The bend in the anchor looks consistent with the bend of a 'not' high tensile steel. There is no flaking of the galvanising that you would expect from HT steel and there does not appear any damage to the fluke. If the owners report is correct, and there is no-one to argue with him (he was there we were not) then the anchor bent under pretty benign conditions. These high holding power anchors when set well take a lot of breaking out (but a 360kg snatch load would not be out of the question with a Bav 49 set in a tight anchorage and no snubber)
Maybe, to those who pooh-poohed the idea, there will be no liability for an owner were the consequencies to be serious, but I would not take the risk. The out of spec Rocnas seem to be spread geographically - and there might be a few (or many) more accidents waiting to happen. Do we need to wait till serious financial damage or injury occurs before Rocna/Holdfast react.
If this were a bosuns chair or a lifejacket there would have been a recall as soon as a fault was detected - why are anchors different.
Enjoy the Easter eggs and have a great time out on the water.
Readers with an ability to rememberl back to mid April, many posts ago, might recall an image of a bent Rocna, se Delfin No 130, 13th April. We were advised this was an anchor used in Venice Lagoon.
The owner reported that the anchor was a 20kg Rocna and the vessel a 49' Bavaria. Cruising weight would be about 13t. The anchor was set using 35m of 10mm chain in 7.5m of water. Maximum wind was 20 knots, seabed sand. To me 10mm chain and a 20kg anchor look a bit wimpy for a Bav 49, but I checked and have been told this is about correct. The yacht was anchored 2nm offhsore (seems a long way - but that's what the owner said).
The owner implied the anchor bent on retrieval.
You might also recall that a 450MPa steel shank for a 20kg anchor will deform under a 90 degree load at about 360kg (Bis80, ASTM 514A, 800MPa at about 640kg) and that Manson found steel shank quality of one of the anchors they tested as 464MPa.
The bend in the anchor looks consistent with the bend of a 'not' high tensile steel. There is no flaking of the galvanising that you would expect from HT steel and there does not appear any damage to the fluke. If the owners report is correct, and there is no-one to argue with him (he was there we were not) then the anchor bent under pretty benign conditions. These high holding power anchors when set well take a lot of breaking out (but a 360kg snatch load would not be out of the question with a Bav 49 set in a tight anchorage and no snubber)
Maybe, to those who pooh-poohed the idea, there will be no liability for an owner were the consequencies to be serious, but I would not take the risk. The out of spec Rocnas seem to be spread geographically - and there might be a few (or many) more accidents waiting to happen. Do we need to wait till serious financial damage or injury occurs before Rocna/Holdfast react.
If this were a bosuns chair or a lifejacket there would have been a recall as soon as a fault was detected - why are anchors different.
Enjoy the Easter eggs and have a great time out on the water.