I hate to do this...but

Brian@Fortress said:
Understood #2. Natalie, is it possible to edit out the offending posts and put the thread back up?

Regards,
Brian

P.S. Love your name, have a daughter named after you.
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Brian, that's truly touching you named your daughter after our Natalie, but unfortunately the editing may be down to me ;).....Although I'm trying to get out of that one :D

The problem was there were so many accusations all the way through it, so it's hard to know what to pull and what not to pull, leave in the accusations that were later proved to be incorrect? Leave out the ones that weren't responded to? Then there are the insults, what I consider and insult will get removed even though the rest of the forum might not.

Some of it is now irrelevant as Rocna have changed the wording on their website and links have been removed. Other parts have been posted on other forums and it also seems to have been the last know post from Craig on the matter, which has it's own place in history.

There is still the issue with some of the information Peter Smith's website that needs resolving. This appears to be where a lot of the Rocna website text has come from.

As I say, going through the thread again is not a job I'm looking forward to, and once it's been looked into it might well be that the legal team just say no to it going back on line. We'll see.
 
cliff said:
I think it is better as a door stop than for example an old Volvo block (which I believe have been used in the past as anchors when they ceased to be any use as engines):D
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We were anchored in Admiralty Bay Bequia and just below the boat was an old engine block which had presumably been used for a mooring buoy but was now abandoned. Were only in a couple metres so swam down to have a look at it. A great big octopus had made its home in the No. 2 cylinder. Everytime we swam down to have a look at him he would recoil back into his cylinder.

Pleasing to see good use being made of old junk!

Richard
 
RichardS said:
We were anchored in Admiralty Bay Bequia and just below the boat was an old engine block which had presumably been used for a mooring buoy but was now abandoned. Were only in a couple metres so swam down to have a look at it. A great big octopus had made its home in the No. 2 cylinder. Everytime we swam down to have a look at him he would recoil back into his cylinder.

Pleasing to see good use being made of old junk!

Richard
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I like to observe how anchors have set and I have seen a lot of Octopi that have made a (temporary home) under the shelter of the anchor, I have never had the heart to kill them as they appear such intelligent creatures, but I do wonder what happens when we pull the anchor up.
There was one in Paxos that I swear had a preference for Manson Supreme anchors.
 
I am pleased to now have my membership back on this board.
I have given an undertaking to IPC that I will not post anything defamatory that could lead to IPC being open to litigation from Rocna.
I also have no problem in answering to the personal attack and claims made about me by Steve on the closed thread. Open and truthful is the only honest way.

Shooting the messenger will not make the topic go away or stop others from asking questions and expecting honest answers and documented proof.

Any statements that I have to make will all be able to be backed up with documented proof that can and will be supplied to IPC before they allow such a post to be published.

I have no problem with their editing or censorship of my postings or anyone else for that matter, it is the only way to keep information truthful and believable.

Grant King
Former Production Manager for Holdfast/ Rocna etc
 
Grant,

The question at hand is the quality of the steel materials that Rocna is using to manufacture their anchors in China. The Anchorsmith made a claim, and you saw Steve Bambury's earlier post on this thread with his claim.

Are you able to now provide substantiated proof of what steel materials are being used to manufacture these anchors? I think these people here who are Rocna owners deserve to know the truth, and if I was one of them, I would be damn tired of the drama.
 
Steel quailty

Before the thread went down some people appeared to have made hardness tests that produced results lower, by a factor of 3 to 4 compared to hardness tests results one should get with Q&T 800 (and, I understand, it is this latter quality that Steve Bambury is claiming he is now using for his shanks). Sadly with the thread removed I cannot recal the figures nor whether the tests were conducted on the fluke or shank.

Possibly the individuals who made those tests might like to re-post their results - or was it all on Anything Sailing.

But for those of you that thought the thread was a waste of space, we now have Holdfast declaring the quality of steel and as a work in progress a cleaning up of the Rocna website, clarification of CS certification and removal of insult, defamation, misrepresentation and lies by Craig Smith - surely the thread justifies its existance on these grounds (and some of you even found it entertaining).

And now that we have Anchor Right, Manson and Holdfast/Rocna declaring the quailty of steel used (and Fortress also declare the quality of aluminium) might there now be an opportunity to extend this transparancy to other anchor makers, Lewmar, Plastimo/Navimo et al?
 
I an I suspect a lot of other people have been dipping in and out of this and the previous thread.
Trying to work out what is fact and what is fiction in the various posts is difficult and makes the job of deciding on a new anchor difficult.
What would help is for some kind person to post details of who is associated with which company.
Brian@Fortress makes his identity plain and obvious but some of the others are difficult to work out.
Obviously we have Craig Smith from Rocna but who else contributing to the thread has got affiliations with the various manufactures?
 
Nostrodamus said:
who else contributing to the thread has got affiliations with the various manufactures?
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Congo=Rex=Sarca=Anchor Right
Manson=Manson!

Both of those were clear enough. Other than those, I can't recall any other manufacturers.

Craigs connection is now unclear as he has removed his claim to be "affiliated". He is, of course, a licensor of the Ronca product and, as such, has a financial connection. His new signature does not make that clear and needs to be modified. :eek:
 
Affiliations

Hi Nostrodamus,

You may, or may not, pose a valid point. I am not affiliated with anyone but that does not make any comment I make better or worse. I have loyalty to the manufacturer of the anchor I use but go out of my way to balance that loyalty, by not mentioning what I use, nor denigrating any other product and if I mention one product favourably, trying to also mention other good anchors.

So no-one enjoys the advantages of my choice of anchor - because if one does repeatedly mention one's anchor of choice one is then accused of being in their back pocket - maybe that type of comment is now history, wait and see, but as those sorts of comments and accusations are still pretty fresh, and YBW are happy to publish them without any basis in fact, there is some reticence - it is to no-one's benefit to require someone to defend an honest choice (against defamatory comment) when the issues are technical. To add to this - the people buying Rocnas and claiming to own Rocnas during a time when the company building them looked 'questionable' all looked as if they had more than an interest of loyalty. I am sure this was far from the case and they were simply underlining that a Rocna is a satisfactory anchor, better than some and as good as others - but I am sure there were/are people who wondered - and I would not expect an honest answer to your question if they were 'affiliated'.

However as mentioned by a number of people

This thread is not about anchors - its about corporate culture.

Once cultural issues have been resolved and we have some issues outstanding - maybe we can then talk about anchors.
 
If this thread is about corporate culture then surely it is important to know who is aligned to what company so we can see the culture of that company.
As I mentioned some make it very obvious and I respect them and their company for this. Others make it less obvious hiding behind one or more names to promote their products or degrade others.
If we knew who was affiliated to who and in what capacity then it would be easier to follow the threads.
 
Affiliation and Corporate Culture

Hi Nostrodamus,

You had a reply from Rigger, covering Anchor Right (Rex, SARCA, Congo), and Manson. Brian@Fortress has made no secrets. We know about Steve (and Brian) Bambury, of Holdfast and Rocna. We know Craig Smith (and Peter Smith?) continue to have a financial interest in Holdfast and Rocna (or at least in the sales on the Rocna anchors). I have declared no interest. We know that Grant King was, does anyone need to know it is the past tense, affiliated with Rocna/Holdfast - so who else is there - Lewmar (it was suggested I had a strong affiliation - simply because I scripted, inaccurately, 4 lines on their history - not true, I might come from Scotland but that is as close as I get), Plastimo/Navimo, Bainbridge, Tie Down/Danforth?? Snooks, Natalie and (Vyv) are IPC - but their comments might not represent the views of their 'employers'.

If you feel uncomfortable with certain comments in the future (or the past) - underline them, there are some people currently contributing who have shown they will expose anything they think is lacking in integrity - so go for it, you will get support for anything that smacks of misrepresentation or dishonesty. And if you are not sure - pick a few you think have integrity, send a PM and test the water. That is one reason we have PMs.

Have a great day.
 
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RINA

I appreciate that Steve Bambury has shown a refreshing new persona. He has stated that he will be addressing all questions on the RINA certification (and updating certification on the Chinese made anchors) and has declared the quality of steels used. He seems to have quelled Craig Smith, though if you read page 12 of Anything Sailing, see below, this might only be limited to certain sites. Some, but not enough, credit to the Bamburys. But previously I had advised RINA of apparent misuse of their correspondence. The removal of the YBW thread made me look a bit of a time waster:


I posted a copy of Holdfast/Rocna's use of a, fairly meaningless, RINA document that was posted on the previous thread to RINA - and RINA responded that they were passing my notification up the management line. This was a bit of a non-starter as the thread was then removed. I have since posted the link to Peter Smith's website, check anchor certification, where he uses the same dcoument to imply Rocna has full RINA approval. Once bitten I have subsequently posted page 12

http://www.anything-sailing.com/showthread.php/7877-Manson-vs.-Rocna/page12

of the Anything Sailing page to RINA. Hopefully this will stay intact for a couple of days.

If/when I get a reply, I'll post it but I'm not holding my breath.

This is more than my quota for the day!
 
I don’t see the need for or any advantage for any one company here, regardless of who said what about who, I only know of one company in history that is likely to have not one, not more, many faces, but who cares now, I think all of those faces, some in the earlier stages of this saga were not just encouraged but rewarded.

I can remember when our forums here in Australia, not one or two possibly all of them, didn’t matter which one you went on, if it wasn’t Mr. C it was some poor deluged fool thinking there was a bag of sweats at the end to swear by the rickety wankers, they weren’t even selling into Australia at the time, that’s when I call company culture a concern.

If it still exists on the current thread so what, this type of culture has nowhere to go, the chips are down, it’s all exposed, you guys have done a great job in discussing all the various brands and advantages of various anchor designs, yes there are better ones, you guys have hit the nail on the head, no one anchor is the be all and end all.

If someone still thinks they should defend Mr. C tactics or somehow tries to defend his marketing methods, not just him but the hole box and dice, after all that has been exposed, then may be you are an undisclosed affiliate with no sting.Time to review your culture.

As there are better anchors, it’s up to you to do the research and decide for yourself, many of you believe in word of mouth, was, and can still be the best method of deciding which anchor, but when you have clones of a company coming across as genuine boa ties making statements for the sake of marketing, many customers will take those comments as genuine word of mouth, as I believe many rickety owners have done, it’s just lucky this time the product in question works.

Rex.

Anchor Right Australia.
 
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Djbangi said:
Snooks, Natalie and (Vyv) are IPC - but their comments might not represent the views of their 'employers'.
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I am not employed by IPC, I'm a totally independent cruising sailor who contributes mostly technical articles to YM and other magazines. For your interest, I have been castigated by the editorial staff for posting negative comments. I say it as I see it.
 
GrantKing said:
I am pleased to now have my membership back on this board.
I have given an undertaking to IPC that I will not post anything defamatory that could lead to IPC being open to litigation from Rocna.
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Have I got this right? They (Rocna) accused you of particularly vile acts and then they threatened to sue you for defamation? :eek:
 
GrantKing said:
I also have no problem in answering to the personal attack and claims made about me by Steve on the closed thread. Open and truthful is the only honest way.
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This is irrelevant to the Quality of anchors of any design, but my curiosity has been aroused, so maybe you'll help me out.

As you will be aware one rather vile accusation was made against you. I'm sure you know the one. Was the Grant King on that web site you, or another Grant King?

Also have you posted under different usernames here? Anywhere else?
 
Exceeding quota, but unreserved apologies

Hi Vyv,

I had no cause to imply you were influenced (in any comment you might have made), as a result of being a paid contributor to IPC (and other publications). I simply suggested, very simplistically, that you were paid by them. And in case this causes offence 'paid by' - received some 'financial recompense'. I did not say you followed any policy or whatever as intructed by IPC et al. I might decide comments you have made - are, or are not - influenced by working for IPC but if I were to decide you were influenced, I would say so - initially privately and if still uncomfortable and it worthy of the effort, publically. As when I suggested someone, not you, employed by IPC had misused their position to allude to the identity of an individual.

Sadly its a public forum and those that make public comment need to accept that someone, someday might take short cuts with the language - or whatever, and such laziness might result in someone taking offence. My mistake. No offense was intended. Hopefully you are mollified.
 
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