I Can’t Believe It’s Not Coppercoat!

[pmagowan]

I wonder if a system couldn't be devised of painting a hull with epoxy and then pressing the copper dust onto the surface, thus preventing the copper being entirely encapsulated in epoxy. The finished result should be akin to a completely copper clad hull as in traditional large craft. A bit like dipping your icecream into frostings! Or perhaps this is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[EwanClark]

Perhaps if not such a tough and waterproof resin was used it would save all the hardship of having to sand the underside of a yacht to expose the copper trapped within the Epoxy.

Exactly right Sticky Stuff. The resin used in Coppercoat is not overly tough and waterproof. If it were, very regular sanding would indeed be required. But because it's not, it works as an anti-foul without requiring such abrading.

There have been several "copycat" versions of Coppercoat launched over the years, with no great success or market penetration. And the common reason for these failures is that the resins used have been inappropriate for anti-fouling purposes. People have tried mixing copper power into very strong and impermeable resins more suited to anti-osmosis work. Lo and behold, the copper has been buried and the coating ineffective (as an anti-foul).

The key point is that not all epoxies are equally robust and it is the job of the blender to manufacture a resin best suited to the job in hand. In the most simple terms, the epoxy used in our anti-foul coating is not as robust as the epoxy used in our anti-osmosis coating. Horses for courses, as they say.

 

[EwanClark]

I wonder if a system couldn't be devised of painting a hull with epoxy and then pressing the copper dust onto the surface, thus preventing the copper being entirely encapsulated in epoxy. The finished result should be akin to a completely copper clad hull as in traditional large craft. A bit like dipping your icecream into frostings! Or perhaps this is a solution looking for a problem.

This has been done. Various versions have been available, such as Cuprotect and Cunitech. Generally two-pack epoxy resin was applied to the hull by roller (to act as the glue), with copper powder then dry-sprayed on to the surface while still tacky. These systems required specialist equipment and skills, so were not for the DIY market.

 

[Tranona]

I wonder if a system couldn't be devised of painting a hull with epoxy and then pressing the copper dust onto the surface, thus preventing the copper being entirely encapsulated in epoxy. The finished result should be akin to a completely copper clad hull as in traditional large craft. A bit like dipping your icecream into frostings! Or perhaps this is a solution looking for a problem.

Nothing new under the sun! Such a system was tried, rollering on the coating and then spraying on the copper. Failed miserably and sunk (like a lot of other attempts at using copper "stuck on") without trace.

 

[Sticky Stuff]

Dry spraying copper particles onto a wet epoxy (bonding them) has been done and didn't really take off, good idea but in reality such a rough surface encourages the growth of weed and slime while the copper simply keeps away shell growth.
Of course all epoxies are different but this does not make them water soluble as is often the case people are led to believe.

If the structure of the epoxy resin has been altered to include a weakness where small particles break away as the copper erodes that should be explained to people thinking of buying it rather than this fanciful water soluble sales pitch I was given.
I have recently bought a high powered magnifying glass on e-bay I will have a look at a new applied epoxy and an older one to compare the difference.
I suspect I will see small voids in the old one where the copper has eroded and left empty craters in the epoxy resin layer ... I will let you know.

 

[pmagowan]

Nothing new under the sun! Such a system was tried, rollering on the coating and then spraying on the copper. Failed miserably and sunk (like a lot of other attempts at using copper "stuck on") without trace.

Damn, and I though I was going to get on Dragon's den!

 

[RichardS]

Dry spraying copper particles onto a wet epoxy (bonding them) has been done and didn't really take off, good idea but in reality such a rough surface encourages the growth of weed and slime while the copper simply keeps away shell growth.
Of course all epoxies are different but this does not make them water soluble as is often the case people are led to believe.

If the structure of the epoxy resin has been altered to include a weakness where small particles break away as the copper erodes that should be explained to people thinking of buying it rather than this fanciful water soluble sales pitch I was given.
I have recently bought a high powered magnifying glass on e-bay I will have a look at a new applied epoxy and an older one to compare the difference.
I suspect I will see small voids in the old one where the copper has eroded and left empty craters in the epoxy resin layer ... I will let you know.

I've never seen AMC use phrase "soluble". They always say that it "erodes slowly" or something similar. I think "soluble" would create the impression that it's gone in a few days or weeks, although they could have used a soluble epoxy (I gave the link earlier) if they had really wanted to maximise their revenue I guess!

Richard

 

[Sticky Stuff]

If you look at the Durcupan mentioned in Wikipedia it does state 'water soluble', so it appears there is such a thing in the world. ( Sold by the gram )
There is no data sheet so it is hard to get to the bottom of how soluble though.
With AMC it states that their epoxy is not affected by water after 48 hours curing. Different story !
Is the Epoxy resin used by any of the copper epoxy system suppliers water soluble as they tell people at boatshows ect ?? .
Not only do they often tell people its soluble they also often simply allow people to go away thinking 'water based' is water soluble and this is how their product works.
I think most accept that any copper rich surface will have an effect against shell growth and that each application will govern how rich and exposed the copper layer is at the surface and subsequently the result (ie Good ... no shell growth but weed/slime or Bad.... shell and weed growth) experienced by each person.
Seems the fans of the product are happy to have some degree of slime and weed and happy to scrape it off.

How about 2 or 3 year antifoulings .. I have heard of some lasting 5 years on one application.
if a £ 200 - 300 system lasts just three years and works as well as any good antifouling and you don't have to touch it, I think in the end 10 years might cost £ 1200-1300.
At least it will be weed free as well as shell free over that time.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Seems the fans of the product are happy to have some degree of slime and weed and happy to scrape it off.

Only ever had a tiny fringe of weed, on the waterline, on the port bow (the bit that was most exposed to the sun on my old berth). Otherwise just a thin layer of slime (and sailing into seaway knocks much of that off) that comes off with a jetwash when the boat is lifted to do anodes. Never needed to scrape. Attached pic shows the effect of wiping a finger across the slime immediately post-lift after 12 months in the water at Gosport. You'll see the slime is no more than an mm thick. The lighter patches are silt, which some how sticks to the slime in places - I guess it's in suspension in the harbour seawater and collects on the slime. Being attached to the slime, not the hull, it falls off easily, like dandruff from a geography teacher.

 

[Tranona]

How about 2 or 3 year antifoulings .. I have heard of some lasting 5 years on one application.
if a £ 200 - 300 system lasts just three years and works as well as any good antifouling and you don't have to touch it, I think in the end 10 years might cost £ 1200-1300.
At least it will be weed free as well as shell free over that time.

That is rather simpilistic. It is possible to get 2 or even 3 years out of conventional antifoul - My last boat using Jotun Seaqueen (now no longer available for DIY) but it did need a lift and wash once a year when anodes were checked/changed as well.

The big potential advantage with Coppercoat is not the saving in material or application cost but in the ability to keep the boat in the water all year round with a once a year lift for a wash. At my club this costs £75 each lift and wash, so saving lift, cradle hire, storage, antifoul, launch, which for my boat would be at least £500 each year and of course the unpleasant job of scraping and painting.

So, if you want low maintenance and a longish time horizon, at least 5 years then it is worth doing as Ken has described.

 

[Vara]

My experience 6 years in with coppercoat, almost exactly mirrors Twisterken's, I do get a small fringe which just falls off when under way, the slime build up is minimal and pressure washes off.
Under motor I loose about 1/4 knot at 5 knots after a year in the water, comparing trips to and from the travel hoist.

The main benefits to me are financial; £150 lift and hold as opposed to £400 for lift and chock. Increased use of boat, 2hrs out of the water as opposed to x weeks. Aggravation factor, anti fouling was never one of my favourite activities.

Oh and as for all the science stuff, I take the empirical view, it works for me.

 

[FullCircle]

My experience 6 years in with coppercoat, almost exactly mirrors Twisterken's, I do get a small fringe which just falls off when under way, the slime build up is minimal and pressure washes off.
Under motor I loose about 1/4 knot at 5 knots after a year in the water, comparing trips to and from the travel hoist.

The main benefits to me are financial; £150 lift and hold as opposed to £400 for lift and chock. Increased use of boat, 2hrs out of the water as opposed to x weeks. Aggravation factor, anti fouling was never one of my favourite activities.

Oh and as for all the science stuff, I take the empirical view, it works for me.

My first year. March application to July, some build up, went on scrubbing posts for free and used my portable jet wash. gave it a quick light scour with scotchbrite. Yesterday, just a very thin layer of slime less than Twister Kens.
My wife is ecstatic, no antifouling except prop and shaft.

 

[EwanClark]

It is important to note that not every copper-based epoxy anti-foul is the same. But speaking solely about the product Coppercoat, I'm happy to confirm that our resin is VOC-free, water-based and water-soluble. By way of definitions, VOC-free means that it contains no Volatile Organic Compounds, water-based means that it contains water (until cured), and water-soluble means that it can be thinned/diluted with water (until cured). An advantage of it being water-soluble is that straight after application you can wash your hands, tools etc under the tap. There is no need to use any of the unpleasant products traditionally associated with cleaning up after applying conventional anti-foul (products such as Xylene and/or Toluene based thinners).

Of course, once the epoxy has cured it would then be deemed "waterproof" and no longer water-soluble. So if you leave your application tools coated with Coppercoat for several days, you'd then be throwing them away rather than cleaning them under the tap!

Finally, to the Coppercoat users on this thread, thank you all for your kind comments and reviews.

 

[Sticky Stuff]

Ok so we are at the bottom of this, It is only water soluble until cured as most epoxy users suspected.
It is good to have this from Copper coat as I felt at one point they and other similar product makers wanted me to believe if washes away in the water once cured.
Its also good to get peoples feed back as it seems for a good few people this type of product has some benefits.
If long term solutions are sought It maybe worth considering also some of the long term antifoulings that seem to be available now, even if they are only available for a boatyard to apply. Of course many antifoulings seem to have a whole selection of biocides in them rather than just copper and if they can now do many years with one simple application for a few hundred quid and fight weed and slime as well as shell growth they have to be worth looking at.

 

[FullCircle]

The only year I got decent antifoul performance was the year I was on a PBO trial, and International Micron was the gift. I put on 10 litres instead of the usual 5, and it worked well. It lasted a year. Thats around 300 quid.

 

[pmagowan]

I noticed that there are new antifouls in development working on 'nanotechnology'. The two types that I came across were one that is like a rubber which nothing can grip to and another which is a patchwork layer of materials that that have differing properties so that anything trying to attach gets confused by it and gives up. Who knows if they will change all our lives for the better but I suspect they will not be cheap.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Coppercoat is the combination of a specially developed two-pack epoxy resin and 99% pure copper. Each litre of Coppercoat contains 2kg of ultra fine copper powder, the maximum allowed by law.

What law limits the fineness of copper powder? Or are they trying to suggest that there is a legal limit to the amount of copper pwoder which may be mixed with epoxy resin?

 

[Tranona]

I noticed that there are new antifouls in development working on 'nanotechnology'. The two types that I came across were one that is like a rubber which nothing can grip to and another which is a patchwork layer of materials that that have differing properties so that anything trying to attach gets confused by it and gives up. Who knows if they will change all our lives for the better but I suspect they will not be cheap.

Given the poor record of wonder antifoulings, it would be a brave person to invest in these inevitably expensive products in the early days. While it is still potentially a bit of a gamble, there is enough positive feedback on Coppercoat over a long period of time to reduce the risk for the normally risk averse people like me.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Oh dear indeed.

Search this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy for the term "water soluble".

Richard

Not found. "Water-soluble" gets a hit, to a paper about using water-soluble epoxy in preparation of tissue specimens for microscopy. The water-solubility in that paper appears to refer to the solvent used pre-cure, not to post-cure properties.

 

[Sticky Stuff]

Micron can easily last 2 years if enough is applied however I would expect a performance drop off somewhere in the second 12 months.
Not that this would be a concern because a simple jet wash would remove any leach layer that had developed (as long as enough was applied in the first place) and the product would work like new again.

The word Nano used to be used as a cool buzz word to include in product marketing 10 years ago.... most people are now aware it is simply another name for extremely small.... so many products have nano particles now , most companies don't even bother to uses the word in their marketing any more.

Silicone (or rubber as PMagowan mentions) FRC's foul release coatings to antifoul makers and have been about for at least 10 years and have been studied intensively.
Most if not all the big paint companies have their own variant of them and available to the market.
Some of the big companies are still investing in their development and I am sure to many they may seem new especially as some small companies start to look at their use and market themselves to small yachts.
Hemple Silic one or International Veridian ( Intersleek versions 700 - 900 -1100 )
They are still applied to some large commercial vessels (cruise liners seem to have a reasonable success with them) although I hear some of the biggest shipping companies in the world are not having great success and are reverting back to long term traditional antifouling systems ( Pretty advanced ones though I would think).
Many smaller yachts have been done and failed due to the constant use and speeds needed to keep them clean both of which are not found on most small vessels.
Like Copper Epoxy systems if you are happy with a coating that does slime/weed up with little use but that clean easily though with a jet wash, you may well be happy with a silicone system. Perhaps it would be better described as an easy clean coating.
As far as I am aware silicone leaches silicone oils that could yet still be found to be an environmental problem !
Silicones systems are very soft and damage easily (I do know one big paint company that has a very hard version though) , they don't repair easily, they are complex to apply, they contaminate equipment and painting environments and they are as yet very expensive and have very limited stocks available ...
Not easy to bring to a market that expects cheap, no fouling, self application, simplicity, supplies ect ect