I admire Brian Bell...

steve_cronin

steve_cronin

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... for his common sense response to Nigel Calder's obsession with "distributed power". I agree with all he says and further applaud YM for making his this month's "Letter of the Month".

KISS is the right ethic in yacht design. Any electrical device which can't be repaired with a screwdriver, pliers and a soldering iron will sooner or alter lead to grief on a cruising boat going to remote areas. So called "parallel wired" systems which I grant are far too complex these days, can, at least be trouble shot with a multimeter and the plethora of production-motivated unecessary connections bridged to put life back into the demised unit.

Calder's motor car comparison does nothing for me when I remember my last Ford's wipers starting in the small hours waking the neighbourhood due to water ingress into the layered pcbs of the control unit. That was rainwater and the location - rural Leicestershire NOT gale lashed salt water off a Turkish island out of season.

Steve Cronin
 
Absolutely right...

Multiplex wiring systems in vehicles have been developed for reasons which have no bearing on a one-off cruising yacht. For vehicles, it's about saving weight and making it easy to offer the choice of an increasingly wide variety of power-hungry options. For Calder, it's about creating more pages of magazine fodder.
 
Well

Perhaps there's a middle ground here. Nigel Calder does seem to know what he is talking about and I always thought his systems seemed robust and well thought out. Claymore was re-wired 6 years ago and has a system of circuit breakers now in place of the many manky auld fuses which used to be there. In upgrading the system its simpler which is vital for the technically inept - amongst whom I number myself. Surely what Nigel suggests will become the industry standard within a short time and perhaps your resistance (oh!) to this is slightly to do with the confluence of old ways and new. That sounds awfully patronising and I didn't mean it so.
 
Re: Well

Yes it does sound patronising, particularly to one who is always at the front line in his own field. However, we aren't talking about breakers against re-wireable fuses here (Incidentally, I've been trying to obtain three replacement circuit breakers for the "Calira" panel fitted to my 4yo Bavaria for 2 years now since they started to fail - re-wireable fuse holders have no moving parts to malfunction) What we mean is a computer sending coded signals to pieces of equipment to tell them when and when not to connect themselves to a common rail. Did you getr to read Mr Bell's letter yet for unless you have I cannot see how you are able to comment on my post.

Please tell me what you would do if your remote switching set-up developed a fault and the controlling micro chip went down? Would you actually know that it had gone down. Half way around the world, in mid Pacific you cannot call on your local computer shop for assistance but a length of wire and two croc clips would get things running again in a directly wired system.

Steve Cronin
 
Re: Nigel Calder

Probably a good idea to look at YM Plus on the YM website.

Quote

I caution others that although this technology is well tested in the automobile world, it is not in the boat world. There will be problems, maybe severe problems.

At the moment there are a very small number of boats using this technology, but by the end of 2006 there will be thousands, which will start to give us a reasonable experience pool.

My recommendation to anyone interested in getting into this technology is to wait and see for another year. Unlike the rest of you, if it does not work out on my boat, I can at least make money writing about the problems I experienced!
 
Re: Well

<<Did you getr to read Mr Bell's letter yet for unless you have I cannot see how you are able to comment on my post.

Please tell me what you would do if your remote switching set-up developed a fault and the controlling micro chip went down? Would you actually know that it had gone down. Half way around the world, in mid Pacific you cannot call on your local computer shop for assistance but a length of wire and two croc clips would get things running again in a directly wired system.>>

Despite the fact that I qualified my remarks with an apology you still choose to remark on it.
To answer your first question - Yes I have
To answer the second - the situation will not arise as I have no intention of being in mid pacific
Bit tetchy are we today Steve?
 
Re: The future is BRIGHT

What you want is a girt big leisure battery at the foot of the mast,and a masthead tricolour connected to it via a couple of crocodile clips .Add a solar panel or windgenerator of proven design and a couple of nice oil lamps and a rechargeable 1million candle flashlight .You know it makes sense
 
Industry standard...

If multiplex wiring does become the industry standard, it will primarily be for the benefit of the boatbuilders who will save labour cost on installation. But for the boatowner, it's likely to bring heartache - especially for those who journey to remote (and even not-so-remote) parts.

Right now, if anything goes wrong with my boat's wiring, I'm 99% certain of being able to fix it, wherever I am, without outside help. With multiplex wiring, that certainly wouldn't be the case. If you draw a parallel with cars, maybe 20 years ago most technically-minded people would be able to fix problems on their cars. With today's cars, DIY repairs are pretty well impossible unless you first invest many thousands of pounds in a diagnostic computer system.

And, as further proof of the dangers to come, check out some of the websites of the people promoting multiplex for boats, and count how many times phrases like "simple fault diagnostic system", "easily replaceable parts" and "debugging capabilities" crop up!

I'm certainly not against the "new ways" of electronic technology (after all, it seems I'm about the only person in the world who has a Link 10 meter which actually works /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ), but I'm very much in favour of self-sufficiency when out on the water.
 
I agree completely with Mr. Bell and with Steve. It's not just a mid-Pacific thing - some (many) of us have MABs, and if the automotive comparison is valid, then you can bet that there will be no boats fitted with this technology that survive to become the MABs of the future.
The DIY owner can easily learn about wires and fuses. Circuit-breakers are OK, but you can't botch'em when they fail. If something fails with the distributed power thing you have no chance, except maybe to run a couple of wires direct. Which would be easier if that was the way the boat was wired in the beginning!
I have a 27 year-old fibreglass car in the garage with electric windows, heater, lights etc. I rewired it myself a few years ago for about £100. I have a four-year old fibreglass Espace outside that has turned to crap since it came out of warranty. Electrics, common-rail engine, electronic controls/dashboard, everything is failing. It will not see 27 years, for sure. So where will the boats for those of us who can't or won't buy new come from in the future, if the builders fill them with this junk?
I think the builder's and Mr. Calders motivations are clear, and that the relevance of this type of development to the majority of DIY boaters on SB is negligible.
It's not in the interest of mass-production builders to produce boats that last a very long time anymore.
 
Ooh goody, a pointless technical argument

Why all the fuss?

Personally, I applaud Nigel Caulder for taking the risk to move this area on. It is not compulsory to buy it for your boat now and it may prove to be a winner in the end.

I'd be surprised that someone who can mend their electrics at present couldn't sort out some kind of a get you home jury rig in the event of a failure. Those that can't sort out electrics now would be stuck whatever the delivery mechnism.

As Claymore says there's a middle ground.
 
[ QUOTE ]
you can bet that there will be no boats fitted with this technology that survive to become the MABs of the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being unduly pessimistic. Any potential MAB owner buying an ageing AWB with a sound hull and defunct space age electronics will rip the lot out and fit "normal" electrics. It isn't rocket science, and one pair of switched, fused wires per device from a busbar at the battery is all you need. At least, that's what I did. It's only if you insist on sailing with full Boeing 747 instrumentation and electrically powered everything that you need to consider a more complicated system. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Actually, 90% of all electronic faults are in the connectors and cables in my experience so it may actually work out a better system, but at the moment its main drawback is it is a relatively untried system.
 
As my tag line might suggest I'm a little sceptical about Hi Tech on boats as primary systems,but saying that I'm grateful that somebody like Calder is pushing the envelope as there could well be long term spinoffs for boat design.
Same applies to his propulsion system which I think shows real promise,it really is a nonsense that so many boats now have two bloody great lumps one for propulsion and the other for electrics.
KISS is all very well in its place,but long trip cruising has got a lot more pleasant and comfortable in the last thirty or so years,mainly through the onward march of technology on all fronts.
 
"but long trip cruising has got a lot more pleasant and comfortable in the last thirty or so years,mainly through the onward march of technology on all fronts. "


I'm not sure I agree with this. What new technology has made cruising more pleasant and comfortable?
 
Mr. Bell obviously reads the forum, for I said this recently in a post about power panels and computer control having no place on cruising yachts.

I could be looking forward to the bottle of famous grouse this month then. I am going to stop my pearls of wisdom on here and write all my woes about modern yachts to the editorial of YM instead.

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Well where shall we start:

Sails and ropes made from artificial fibres that don't rot
Roller furling gear and reefing systems that make sail handling a doddle
GPS that makes landfall a certainty
Fridges that keep the booze cool

and that's just 10 second's thought
 
and

Radar
Autopilots
Depthsounders
Wind instruments
Walkman for the night watch
Hatches that don't leak
Breathable oilies that keeps both the cold and the wet out whilst not turning you into a sauna
Radios and comms networks that enable you to get weather forecasts anywhere on the planet
Web boards that anable you to look up almost any information about a destination
Routing software to plan your voyage

you get the drift
 
solar panels
solar powered gizmos such as ventilators
DSC
layering systems of clothing
2 way radios so that people in the cockpit can communicate more easily with people at the bow.
antifoul that is kinder to the environment
hydraulic steering systems
stackpac systems
improved inflatable dinghy construction methods, designs and materials
My beloved fenderstep
 
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