Hydraulic steering

[pmagowan]

What is the consensus opinion on hydraulic steering in a sail boat? I know it has a reputation for no feel but looking online I see that this is no longer necessarily the case (see here: http://hydrive.com.au/products/for-sail-boats/feedback-options).

I was wondering because it appears to have advantages in dual steering set-ups and with autopilot. It also appears to solve a lot of problems with installation and routing of cables.

 

[rogerthebodger]

What is the consensus opinion on hydraulic steering in a sail boat? I know it has a reputation for no feel but looking online I see that this is no longer necessarily the case (see here: http://hydrive.com.au/products/for-sail-boats/feedback-options).

I was wondering because it appears to have advantages in dual steering set-ups and with autopilot. It also appears to solve a lot of problems with installation and routing of cables.

I have hydraulic steering which is easy to install as I have both inside and outside steering together with autopilot which is simply a reversing gear pump.

If you have multi steering stations the system needs pilot operated check valves to prevent back feed to the non operating steering station and this removes the feel that you speak of. I you only have a single steering with no autopilot you do not need the pilot operated check valves and thus you do get a feel from the rudder

 

[Tranona]

For many the direct feel you get with a mechanical link between the wheel and the rudder is a key factor in the enjoyment of helming the boat - or more properly lack of feel from poor linkages is a negative if you are a "real sailor".

However as you have correctly identified achieving this with two helms and reliance on autopilots means that hydraulic steering has advantages. So you find it common on bigger more motorsailer orientated boats like Nauticats and many large catamarans.

As ever there are compromises.

 

[prv]

As well as the feel issue, hydraulic wheels often can't be marked with a "king spoke" because they slowly drift over time due to slight leakage through the pump. So it would be worth fitting a rudder indicator as found on ships (or you might get by with the indication on some autopilot controllers).

Having a single hydraulic circuit for wheel(s) and autopilot is convenient, but doesn't give any redundancy. A significant benefit of fitting a below-decks pilot on Ariam with a separate tiller is that I have two independent steering systems that only meet at the rudder stock. If a steering cable were to fail, which is not impossible, I could simply press the autopilot button to regain control. The emergency tiller wouldn't be essential (though I'd fit it in preparation) until it was time to moor up. You could of course fit a second hydraulic circuit for a pilot, or use hydraulic wheels with an electric or electro-hydraulic ram on its own tiller.

Pete

 

[rogerthebodger]

As well as the feel issue, hydraulic wheels often can't be marked with a "king spoke" because they slowly drift over time due to slight leakage through the pump. So it would be worth fitting a rudder indicator as found on ships (or you might get by with the indication on some autopilot controllers).

Pete

One other disadvantage of hydraulic steering is that the slow drift over time due to slight leakage through the pump means that you cannot connect a self steering gear to the cockpit wheel. This is why I am modifying my Monitor self steering gear by adding an auxiliary rudder,

 

[dom]

Having a single hydraulic circuit for wheel(s) and autopilot is convenient, but doesn't give any redundancy. A significant benefit of fitting a below-decks pilot on Ariam with a separate tiller is that I have two independent steering systems that only meet at the rudder stock. If a steering cable were to fail, which is not impossible, I could simply press the autopilot button to regain control. The emergency tiller wouldn't be essential (though I'd fit it in preparation) until it was time to moor up.

Pete

That's exactly what happened to me - just off Cowes in the Precautionary Area of all places! As you say all I did was hit AP and then navigate manually in +/- 1 or 10 degree increments, or to a set heading. Time to go below and jury rig the steering before an easy entry to Cowes.

If one wants to go hydraulic (prob necessary on bigger boats) it is IMHO much better to go the linear-drive connected to quadrant route. Else an independent system, which will in reality remove all feeling from helm with fluid whizzing back and fwd through 2x cross-flow valves.

 

[rogerthebodger]

If one wants to go hydraulic (prob necessary on bigger boats) it is IMHO much better to go the linear-drive connected to quadrant route. Else an independent system, which will in reality remove all feeling from helm with fluid whizzing back and fwd through 2x cross-flow valves.

But you cannot do that if you have duel steering as the quadrant will be locked by the pilot check valves.

To do this you need a bypass valve access the quadrant cylinder and a quick means to operate it.

 

[dom]

But you cannot do that if you have duel steering as the quadrant will be locked by the pilot check valves.

To do this you need a bypass valve access the quadrant cylinder and a quick means to operate it.

 

[pmagowan]

For many the direct feel you get with a mechanical link between the wheel and the rudder is a key factor in the enjoyment of helming the boat - or more properly lack of feel from poor linkages is a negative if you are a "real sailor".

However as you have correctly identified achieving this with two helms and reliance on autopilots means that hydraulic steering has advantages. So you find it common on bigger more motorsailer orientated boats like Nauticats and many large catamarans.

As ever there are compromises.

It is the same with everything. I am used to tiller so even going over to a wheel is a loss to me. I love the feel of a tiller but no boat over 40 foot seems to have one so I have to accept that there is a good reason. I have been looking for a best of both worlds solution to having both but I suspect it simply compicates things. My thoughts were that since most boats bring the rudder stock up so that an emergency tiller can be fitted I could have a semi-permanent tiller and also have a binnacle with a fitting for a wheel. The other option I have been looking into is the potential to have a deck saloon such as on the Rustler 44 and design a steering position from where the nav table would be.

I was thinking hydraulics makes fitting an autopilot easier and allows for a dual station approach without the complications of a mechanical steering setup. I would, however, very much resist anything that might take away the feel and so I was looking at hydraulic systems that claim to solve this problem. The one in the link seems to have an automatic valve that can be activated to seperate different systems and essentially turn the 'feel' off and on. Why does it matter if one wheel makes the other one turn anyway, or the autopilot for that matter?

 

[aquaplane]

Our Espace has a tiller as an outside steering position as normal.

The internal hydraulic wheel operates a ram which connects to pin/quadrant on the rudder shaft. The Autopilot is hydraulic too (Autohelm 4000) when it works.

To change from tiller to hydraulic is simply a case of setting a switch hidden in the gas locker, this engages or disengages the pin in a hole on the rudder quadrant, it takes seconds.

There is not much feel/feedback from the wheel steering but that is only used when motoring to point the boat in the right general direction.

 

[prv]

I love the feel of a tiller but no boat over 40 foot seems to have one

A few do, seems to be quite common on singlehanded round-the-world racers for instance. Also some pilot cutters in the 40 - 50 foot range, though admittedly they can have very heavy weather helm requiring a line from the windward rail as a relieving tackle of sorts. But maybe a balanced rudder would help with that if you're not going for a traditional long keel shape?

The large ketch Landfall, described in an Uffa Fox book of the 1930s, had both a tiller and a wheel. Not sure of her length off-hand, but we're talking 70 or 80 feet. He raced across the Atlantic in her and liked the boat, so the helm arrangements must have worked.

Why does it matter if one wheel makes the other one turn anyway

Because the other wheel turns instead of the rudder

Pete

 

[rogerthebodger]

One possible way to have twin hydraulic steering and also have feel is to have twin independent rams on the rudder shaft each operated by a separate wheel pump. In this case no pilot check valves would be needed thus allowing rudder feed back.

In this setup a ram type autopilot could also be used. Also like mechanically connected twin wheels both wheels would move together also both would move when the autopilot operated the rudder.

 

[pmagowan]

Hmm. Interesting. I originally thought a tiller would be a primary requirement but as I make more and more compromises this may be one of them. However, thinking about it after hearing your feedback, I suppose a tiller and a secondary hydraulic wheel would be less of an issue. The plan is for a semi-ballanced rudder on a skeg (so far, things can change). I really need to look deeply into this to see how many boxes I can tick.

If I have a tiller, easily removable, then this can be my 'feel' and my emergency steerage. It only requires continuing the rudder stock up to deck height like many boats do for an emergency tiller anyway. Then I have to think about wheels. A hydraulic pump would be convenient for locating wheels and also to fit autopilot to. I maybe don't need to worry about feel if I have the tiller. I could have a wheel fitting on the binnacle and another inside at the nav station. I could just take the wheel to where it is needed.

How would this affect the tiller. Is there a way to 'clutch' the hydraulics so that it doesn't add resistance to the tiller? I know this sounds like I want my cake and to eat it too! Essentially I want to be flexible.

 

[dom]

But you cannot do that if you have duel steering as the quadrant will be locked by the pilot check valves.

To do this you need a bypass valve access the quadrant cylinder and a quick means to operate it.

Apols for empty post, my internet got blasted by BT! I personally abhor the feeling, or to be more precise the total lack of of feeling when helming a boat fitted with a twin-wheel check-valve system. Two fully independent systems are an easy albeit expensive partial solution to the lack of feel, and they also permit an independent AP actuted linear drive. The more common and cheaper (and even more partial solution) is a system specific bypass valve you mention; independent AP works but still no feel.

Another problem with check-valves is that even the tiniest little speck of crud stuck in one of these,things can mean byebye steering - manual plus AP! So for those with these systems I'd recommend knowing exactly where they are in case you need to mend one in a hurry.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I have the same setup you propose. Inside and outside steering wheels with autopilot pump. I also have an emergency removable tiller which is a legal safety requirement. To allow the tiller to be used without too much resistance from the hydraulics I have a bypass valve across the two ports of the cylinder. When the valve is open moving the tiller allows oil to pass from one side of the cylinder to the other. When the valve is closed the tiller is locked but the wheels/autopilot pump control the cylinder

 

[prv]

I maybe don't need to worry about feel if I have the tiller. I could have a wheel fitting on the binnacle and another inside at the nav station.

If you have a tiller in the cockpit, why would you have a wheel as well? Surely a tiller in the cockpit and a wheel in the pilothouse is the sensible combination?

Is there a way to 'clutch' the hydraulics so that it doesn't add resistance to the tiller?

To an extent - you have a valve adjacent to the cylinder that connects the two pipes together. So instead of the fluid having to be pushed all the way along the pipe, turn the wheel, and pushed all the way back again, it just gets pushed backwards and forwards round a small loop next to the cylinder. This still adds some resistance; I don't know whether it would be enough to be a problem.

Depending on where the ram is located, you could also have a removable pin or other joint to completely disconnect it.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Think you perhaps need to try a modern wheel steered boat as you will find your fears about lack of feel are misplaced. Racing helms have no problems with lack of feel. If you have ever tried an emergency tiller you will realise how high loads can be and the difficulty of providing enough leverage. There is a very sound reason why wheels dominate that size boat and it is not difficult to designs good system. Look at Jefa for some ideas. Combination of wheel steering, remote for the autopilot and a vane gear like a Hurricane,perhaps with a tillerpilot will cover all your needs.

 

[pmagowan]

If you have a tiller in the cockpit, why would you have a wheel as well? Surely a tiller in the cockpit and a wheel in the pilothouse is the sensible combination?



To an extent - you have a valve adjacent to the cylinder that connects the two pipes together. So instead of the fluid having to be pushed all the way along the pipe, turn the wheel, and pushed all the way back again, it just gets pushed backwards and forwards round a small loop next to the cylinder. This still adds some resistance; I don't know whether it would be enough to be a problem.

Depending on where the ram is located, you could also have a removable pin or other joint to completely disconnect it.

Pete

You are right, of course, it is madness to have a tiller and a wheel in the cockpit but then I am mad

My thoughts were about flexibility as some people don't like a tiller. The other thing is the problem that everyone else is correct and a wheel is a better option than a tiller for a boat of this size. The only way I will know is by doing all the calculations and even then there is nothing quite like the real thing. Essentially I was thinking that many boats have this arrangement it is just that they hide the tiller attachment only for use in an emergency. I would just make it convenient to pick and choose what you prefer.

It is probably unnecessary and it might not happen at all. Perhaps I will end up with the tiller and an inside steering position. I only started to look into the raised deck saloon style of boat recently after originally discounting it because it restricted the number of cabins to 2. I have now changed my mind thinking that 2 good cabins are better than 3 poor ones and there are plenty of other berths in the saloon.

 

[prv]

My thoughts were about flexibility as some people don't like a tiller. The other thing is the problem that everyone else is correct and a wheel is a better option than a tiller for a boat of this size. The only way I will know is by doing all the calculations and even then there is nothing quite like the real thing. Essentially I was thinking that many boats have this arrangement it is just that they hide the tiller attachment only for use in an emergency. I would just make it convenient to pick and choose what you prefer.

The trouble is that, ignoring the actual steering implement itself, it's hard to design a cockpit layout that works well for both tiller and wheel simultaneously.

Pete

 

[pmagowan]

The trouble is that, ignoring the actual steering implement itself, it's hard to design a cockpit layout that works well for both tiller and wheel simultaneously.

Pete

I think it can be done. Whether it is a good idea or not is another thing. I want a binnacle and a fold down table for dining in the cockpit. The binnacle can be where the wheel would go and the tiller only needs to come to the widened 'steering area' of the cockpit. Both the wheel and the tiller could be detachable so would not clutter up the cockpit when not in use.