sighmoon
Well-Known Member
And pointy rocks. And ram it with a metal hulled workboat.
How would you block a broken seacock or sterngland?
- Thread starter snooks
- Start date
SimbaDog
Well-Known Member
I carry a roll of Fernox emergency repair tape, ideal for split pipes or a split volvo stern tube seal.
For seacocks I carry the usual wooden taper bungs & a couple of large candles which can be hammered into holes!
For seacocks I carry the usual wooden taper bungs & a couple of large candles which can be hammered into holes!
snooks
Well-Known Member
Which is kind of hard and metal, much like.....erm....the fork of a forklift?
There is method in our madness, honestly
prv
Well-Known Member
Which is kind of hard and metal, much like.....erm....the fork of a forklift?
There is method in our madness, honestly
So you've found another insurer to buy you a forklift to drive into the oggin then?
Pete
snooks
Well-Known Member
So you've found another insurer to buy you a forklift to drive into the oggin then?
No, we've found one of MDL's staff, who may (or may not) be accurate at driving a forklift into a boat, to do it for us on land....I don't think it's part of their forklift driver training to be honest
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sighmoon
Well-Known Member
No, we've found one of MDL's staff, who may (or may not) be accurate at driving a forklift into a boat, to do it for us on land....I don't think it's part of their forklift driver training to be honest
Won't it be a bit different though? I imagine the boat will swing about more hung on the crane than it would supported in water.
On the plus side though, I reckon you'll be able to use the footage for a future jackass movie, as if he gets it right he may get a bit bashed.
Off topic, I know, but in a former life, I was a mechanical test engineer, and the rule was, as lifelike as possible - what seems to be equivalent normally isn't. A boat ramming an object will be more informative than a forklift hitting a boat.
You'll also be able to try variations on the theme - hitting the keel, the rudder etc, see how fast the water comes in, see what gets dislodged inside. Different materials. Glancing blow vs head on. Plus, think of the photos - some nice underwater pictures of a boat striking rocks might be of use to the insurer who's sponsoring the gig.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Fork-lift training video from Germany.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1BAiJIaezc
The fun starts at about 2 mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1BAiJIaezc
The fun starts at about 2 mins
snooks
Well-Known Member
Our risk and insurance manager here at IPC might have a heart attack!
He's still dealing with the claim from may accident last year.Finding something we can hit again and again (and finding something someone will let us hit again and again) making the whole process repeatable, while not getting ourselves or our equipment trapped in a sinking boat in the process would be impossible for us to achieve.
The plan at the moment, as I understand it, is for the boat to be lifted out, set down, and Mr forklift then drives at the boat, hoping to hit the spot we want them to hit.
Boat then gets lowered into the water, and the slings slackened. As she sinks she'll eventually be caught be the slings and nobody or their equipment will go down with this ship
But that's all in the future, back to seacocks failing
Searush
Well-Known Member
Snooks;
Do you now how seacocks usually fail? And how often do they fail?
My point is, yes it is a common boating fear, but what are the actual chances of it happening & what is the most common failure mode? So your article NEEDS to evaluate the risk rather than just scare people silly. Also the techniques displayed need to address the most common modes of failure.
Personally, I reckon it is a pretty rare failure mode - compared to say, engine hoses coming off or splitting & pumping the boat full of water. Think about it, if you never use the cocks & they seize, they are just inert & unstressed so unlikely to fail - unless electrolytically damaged or made of brass or plastic. If they are regularly checked & maintained you will probably see the signs before it happens. I'll bet a few events occur on launch if they've been left closed & seize, snapping when you try to open them in the water.
I think I feel a poll coming on to gather data for you.
Do you now how seacocks usually fail? And how often do they fail?
My point is, yes it is a common boating fear, but what are the actual chances of it happening & what is the most common failure mode? So your article NEEDS to evaluate the risk rather than just scare people silly. Also the techniques displayed need to address the most common modes of failure.
Personally, I reckon it is a pretty rare failure mode - compared to say, engine hoses coming off or splitting & pumping the boat full of water. Think about it, if you never use the cocks & they seize, they are just inert & unstressed so unlikely to fail - unless electrolytically damaged or made of brass or plastic. If they are regularly checked & maintained you will probably see the signs before it happens. I'll bet a few events occur on launch if they've been left closed & seize, snapping when you try to open them in the water.
I think I feel a poll coming on to gather data for you.
KINGFISHER 9
Well-Known Member
Forespar Tru Plug £19.95 ... large foamy looking plug which can, it says, be shaped any way you like ... found it on Force 4 website but no doubt available all over ... think I'll get one but better to see one in the flesh rather than buy it on-line.
Also on Seamark Nunn site with a better description but £23.95.
(if I knew how I'd have posted a pic! ... I expect someone will)
Also on Seamark Nunn site with a better description but £23.95.
(if I knew how I'd have posted a pic! ... I expect someone will)
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Wunja
Well-Known Member
Hans Brinker solution.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Were you all in the pub when you thought that one up? Its a bit unsophisticated at best. What are you trying to demonstrate?
It would be more interesting if someone drilled a hole / cut a slot (preferably) in the boat such that the flow rate was just a bit more than the boats pump capacity. However, the YM crew do not where the leak is and they have to find it and then plug it, after the water is noticed above the floor boards. The number one issue in sinking boats is not stopping the leak, its finding it.
Make it useful, ramming a yacht with a forklift is pointless and will just take up space that could be used for useful stuff i.e. the floor boards were screwed down and we didn't have a screw driver, after 10 minutes of winch handle abuse, we resigned to the fact that we couldn't find the hole to save the yacht.
I can see it now, 2 pages of A4 glossy with a big picture of a yacht and the forklift poking it. Pointless in so many ways.
sighmoon
Well-Known Member
Our risk and insurance manager here at IPC might have a heart attack!
Finding something we can hit again and again (and finding something someone will let us hit again and again) making the whole process repeatable, while not getting ourselves or our equipment trapped in a sinking boat in the process would be impossible for us to achieve.
The plan at the moment, as I understand it, is for the boat to be lifted out, set down, and Mr forklift then drives at the boat, hoping to hit the spot we want them to hit.
Boat then gets lowered into the water, and the slings slackened. As she sinks she'll eventually be caught be the slings and nobody or their equipment will go down with this ship
But that's all in the future, back to seacocks failing
If the objective is to sink (and quickly recover) a ship, then fine.
If the objective is to learn what sort of hole you'd actually expereince from hitting anything, then it's less use. I'm sure you can arrange a tug either side of a known rock, wiht slings below keel depth. Boat hits the rock between the two tugs. Slings take up the slack.
As others have said, finding the hole may be the hard bit, and the reality may be that finding it takes longer than we imagine. On that note, I'd also like to know if you can buy more time by doing anything in particular. i.e. closing sink seacocks, careening to get the hole above water level (easier if the hole is made by a forklift ramming you from the side than a rock ramming you from the front), sealing hatch and vents to maintain an air pocket, etc, etc.
Anyway, that's for the future. For now, I'm hoping softwood bungs do the job, as that's what I have tied to my seacocks. It would be interesting to install a catastrophically corroded seacock from somewhere to see if the bit that's left is a shape you can't (say) ram a bung into.
Edit: Just to add Dehler rammed a few things with their product and it didn't get any water in. It would be interesting to see if all GRP boats can do this. Video on youtube.
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prv
Well-Known Member
I understood Snooks's original post to cover any aberration that results in water from a skin fitting rushing into the boat. That would include the hose splitting or coming off.
Pete
snooks
Well-Known Member
We're going to demonstrate ways of stopping water in the case of a catastrophic hull breach, such as hitting a container or other unidentified floating object at sea.
We're going see if it's possible to stem the flow of water, using the "conventional wisdom" (Sails dragged over the hole, sleeping bags, bunk cushions etc) then try to stop the water with less conventional methods (a lifejacket stuffed through the hole and inflated, sail covers and battens screwed over the hole, ham joint etc etc), to see which ones work and which ones don't. We're testing ideas we've read about and been taught and see if they do actually work.
That is a valid test, but other than systematically going through the boat, anything we do would be of less use to readers, as every boat and hole is different.
In this test, we're working on the idea that if you hit something you'll know about it, and with a hole big enough to stick your arm through it would be quite easy to ascertain where the point of impact was...Without spoiling the fun, we've played the hunt the hole game already.
I've personally played it for real a couple of times, and for a third time when the hole wasn't below the waterline. The only way you can deal with a leak is to find out where the water is coming from, and the only way to do that is to search for it systematically, working out where there is least water, and going forward or back to where the water level increases it's worked well for me so far. Then get busy with the bucket.
Well if you go to sea without a screw driver, then I would be very worried.
What would trying to open floor boards with butter knives and hacksaw blades and winch handles actually tell us? That a screw driver is the best tool for the job?
Would it really matter if we were on a boat for that one or not? Not really, we could do that anywhere to be honest...We didn't manage to get the screw out in X minutes so we effectively "sunk". How would that educate and inform readers? Take a screw driver?I'm sad you believe it to be pointless, we believe it's something that hasn't been done before and is worth doing, but that's your opinion. Two pages of us trying to unscrew floor boards with cutlery and winch handles would be of far less value in my opinion, and the post bags would be bulging from readers asking why we were foolish enough to sea without a screwdriver/multitool.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this test, but there are a few more we have in the pipeline.
Mrnotming
Well-Known Member
hole in hull what we did!
A real life situation which turned out ok!
We were asked by a farmer to use a 40 ton canal barge to pull one of his cattle out of a drainage ditch, where the animal was trapped.A blue polypropylene rope was knotted around the casualty's neck(by the farmer!) and the throttle progressively opened on the barge.Much to my surprise the animals head did not come off in the endeavour. When it popped up, a very muddy animal shook it's head a few times and resumed grazing!
As we rounded a bend shortly afterwards we caught the bilge in a rock protruding from the bank ( an unmarked hazard like lumps of coal, armchairs and shopping trolleys!).We found water rising in the bilge.The electric pump could not keep pace with the inflow,which was under a frame at the turn of the round bilge.Skipper mixed up plastic padding on a square of polythene and rammed it in and around the frame.It checked the inflow but there was still a good drop coming in.Darkness fell whilst pondering continued.As Skipper wanted to leave the vessel unattended till the following weekend, he conceived a daring plan.
Stripping to his shorts, he mixed up another batch of plastic padding and with this in hand on another square of polythene, he bravely took a dip beneath the water, located the damage and squeezed as much resin mix as he could into the damaged area.Success, only a trickle was coming in now, and of course peat moss thrown into the water could stem the remainder.So whilst these generic products will not actually stick to any wet surface, they will set underwater and block mechanically a pierced hull.
Ever since, I have carried a large tin of Body Filler and hardener in case I need to do something similar.
look forward to the tests, maybe a little lift on the strops, then electric (12/12v) drill with say 80mm bit could be used to make a dramatic hole in the hull.Use the fork lift for bringing crates of Guinness instead!
A real life situation which turned out ok!
We were asked by a farmer to use a 40 ton canal barge to pull one of his cattle out of a drainage ditch, where the animal was trapped.A blue polypropylene rope was knotted around the casualty's neck(by the farmer!) and the throttle progressively opened on the barge.Much to my surprise the animals head did not come off in the endeavour. When it popped up, a very muddy animal shook it's head a few times and resumed grazing!
As we rounded a bend shortly afterwards we caught the bilge in a rock protruding from the bank ( an unmarked hazard like lumps of coal, armchairs and shopping trolleys!).We found water rising in the bilge.The electric pump could not keep pace with the inflow,which was under a frame at the turn of the round bilge.Skipper mixed up plastic padding on a square of polythene and rammed it in and around the frame.It checked the inflow but there was still a good drop coming in.Darkness fell whilst pondering continued.As Skipper wanted to leave the vessel unattended till the following weekend, he conceived a daring plan.
Stripping to his shorts, he mixed up another batch of plastic padding and with this in hand on another square of polythene, he bravely took a dip beneath the water, located the damage and squeezed as much resin mix as he could into the damaged area.Success, only a trickle was coming in now, and of course peat moss thrown into the water could stem the remainder.So whilst these generic products will not actually stick to any wet surface, they will set underwater and block mechanically a pierced hull.
Ever since, I have carried a large tin of Body Filler and hardener in case I need to do something similar.
look forward to the tests, maybe a little lift on the strops, then electric (12/12v) drill with say 80mm bit could be used to make a dramatic hole in the hull.Use the fork lift for bringing crates of Guinness instead!
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Pathos and Panic
The only part I think is pointless is ramming the yacht with a forklift as I dont think that it usefully contributes to what you wish to convey. Anything more than two sentences on puncturing the boat with a forklift is a waste of space that could be better used to explain something else.
From my reading, I believe that most yachts that sink after striking an object in open water, is because they can not find the leak and do something to stem the flow. I think that this is a point that should be made clear to your readers on any article about water ingress and blocking it. I would not expect the article to be about failing to unscrew the floor boards. I would have thought the pathos of my description would allude to that.
I believe if your allowed the boat to fill, with the safety controls in place, and time how long it takes to find the leak (only start after the water is above the cabin sole) then that would be useful for the readers. You could calculate the theoretical sinking time (or a level mark on the hull) and see if you can find the leak before this; someone pumping, while others try and open lockers, unscrew floor boards etc.
Afterwards pump the boat out with a typical RNLI pump and time that. That would be useful information. Later with the boards up, start the boat sinking again and test the various methods to seal a leak. The forklift is pointless and contributes nothing to the lessons that I hope will be found and reported.
Anyway, its just an opinion and I look forward to the article when its published.
The only part I think is pointless is ramming the yacht with a forklift as I dont think that it usefully contributes to what you wish to convey. Anything more than two sentences on puncturing the boat with a forklift is a waste of space that could be better used to explain something else.
From my reading, I believe that most yachts that sink after striking an object in open water, is because they can not find the leak and do something to stem the flow. I think that this is a point that should be made clear to your readers on any article about water ingress and blocking it. I would not expect the article to be about failing to unscrew the floor boards. I would have thought the pathos of my description would allude to that.
I believe if your allowed the boat to fill, with the safety controls in place, and time how long it takes to find the leak (only start after the water is above the cabin sole) then that would be useful for the readers. You could calculate the theoretical sinking time (or a level mark on the hull) and see if you can find the leak before this; someone pumping, while others try and open lockers, unscrew floor boards etc.
Afterwards pump the boat out with a typical RNLI pump and time that. That would be useful information. Later with the boards up, start the boat sinking again and test the various methods to seal a leak. The forklift is pointless and contributes nothing to the lessons that I hope will be found and reported.
Anyway, its just an opinion and I look forward to the article when its published.
Searush
Well-Known Member
I think the (very valid) point (sorry) of using the fork lift is that the hole will be jagged & irregular as it would be if holed by a rock, container or collision of some sort.
KINGFISHER 9
Well-Known Member
May I refer you to my post on page 5 .... how about testing the thing ... Forespar TruPlug?
See if it is actually capable of filling a jagged hole! ... If it does then it should be a useful bit of kit to keep on board.
See if it is actually capable of filling a jagged hole! ... If it does then it should be a useful bit of kit to keep on board.
snooks
Well-Known Member
Panic over, we're not going big on the forklift
we will however explain at the end how we conducted the tests and why we did the things we did. Most of the catastrophic sinkings I've read about (Baileys, Callahan, Robertsons etc) all had to take to the liferaft because the hole was so big, and it might be interesting to see how long it is before the yacht does actually sink with the hole we're trying to block. I don't know whether it will be possible to do this though.
I think by the time the boat is in the water and we get on board, the water should be above the floor boards. But this is the good bit about these tests, we really don't know what will happen
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