How to sell a boat

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Although not your point I also have to take issue with the poster that thinks the first thing a broker wants to do is park the boat in their yard. Brokerage services have moved forward and there is choice now which allows owners to leave their boats where they are, continue to use them and at the same time be safe in the knowledge that brokers are personally accompanying customers on board for viewings and in most cases filtering out the tyre kickers.

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Well, I guess I'm the one you're taking issue with then.

When we were selling, we very briefly considered putting our boat for sal through a broker. We contacted 3 - ALL of them wanted to put her on the hard.
Usually dressed up as an "attractive" package -> free storage for the first 6 months.
I don't know how you feel, but IMHO one of the worst things you can do to a boat is not sailing her. Even in winter. They start to look neglected/abandoned really quickly.
Sticking her up on the hard with a broker limits your options. If you're not happy with the service the broker provides (or doesn't) you're immediately faced with the cost of relaunching her. Other boats will have to be moved, etc... and before you know it you're faced with £1K plus just to get your boat back.

As to brokers showing potential buyers around - when we were buying we looked at 9 boats. Out of those 9 - TWO brokers showed us round. In case of the other SEVEN their idea of showing us round amounted to: "She's in the back somewhere. I'm sure you'll be able to find a ladder".

I'm sure there are some very decent brokers out there, doing a good job for both buyers and sellers - it's just that they are few and far between.

As to the broker objecting to the amount of stick they get on here - it's only to be expected. What are brokers but estate agents for boats? Likewise not exactly a profession held in high esteem.
 
Agree with some of what you say..... but not all of it...

Estate agents aren't getting 1.5% on £400k houses..... not round my part of the world..... closer to 0.75% on that value..... and the average property price in the UK is still only £178k, so even at 1.5% thats only £2,670 on the average sale in the UK market.

Secondly, you'd be suprised how much involvement an estate agent has in post negotiation activity around the sale of a house.....

Otherwise, I agree... a good broker is worth their fee in making the transaction safe... its just sad that while you seem to be one of the good guys, we hear far far too many stories on this forum of extremely poor performance from brokers.... the associations seem to be a bit of a joke, and there is little to stop anyone from calling themselves a broker and off they go...

I also agree that broking is not just putting an advert on the internet... its just a shame that there are so many cowboys out there that don't appreciate your very valid point...
 
Why are we selling the boat: Because the family is getting bigger and we need a third cabin, but we did fall in love with her and would like something similar

Thank you for all your answers, I think I get the idea.

PVB is very web sophisticated - I would like to try his method hoping that I can do it.
 
"As to the broker objecting to the amount of stick they get on here - it's only to be expected. What are brokers but estate agents for boats? Likewise not exactly a profession held in high esteem. "

I'm not sure I would thank you for the insult, but I did try and explain the different roles of an Estate agent and a Yacht broker above. I am speaking on this thread as some one who has sold privately, bought privately, sold through a broker, bought through a broker and who also has experience as a broker.

"When we were selling, we very briefly considered putting our boat for sal through a broker. We contacted 3 - ALL of them wanted to put her on the hard.
Usually dressed up as an "attractive" package -> free storage for the first 6 months.
I don't know how you feel, but IMHO one of the worst things you can do to a boat is not sailing her. Even in winter. They start to look neglected/abandoned really quickly.
Sticking her up on the hard with a broker limits your options. If you're not happy with the service the broker provides (or doesn't) you're immediately faced with the cost of relaunching her. Other boats will have to be moved, etc... and before you know it you're faced with £1K plus just to get your boat back. "

Some people want their boats out of the water through winter anyway so for them it is a cost of the seasons boating, if a broker offers free storage (effectively reduced commission) then it's a good deal all round. They would be paying storage and lift charges anyway. Lots of people live a long way from their boats, and in the water they soon look just as negelcted. But I agree with you, It should not be a compulsory condition for a broker to accept your listing.

"As to brokers showing potential buyers around - when we were buying we looked at 9 boats. Out of those 9 - TWO brokers showed us round. In case of the other SEVEN their idea of showing us round amounted to: "She's in the back somewhere. I'm sure you'll be able to find a ladder"

If you looked at 9 boats I assume there were 8 you did not buy. Thats a fairly typical example. Let's take those numbers and assume the purchaser is only looking at private sales. He views 9 boats. 8 vendors will then complain they had someone round who didn't buy. Perhaps they gave up part of a weekend, or even a work day to show the boat. Some may have travelled anywhere from 15 mins to 2hrs to show the boat to the buyer. Lets say 10 buyers were interested in each of the 9 boats, and each boat was sold to one buyer. That's 81 trips to show boats to buyers who did not buy. That is why some people prefer a broker to deal with all the viewers who do not buy. If you are selling your house, buyers come to you. If you are sellng your boat, you go to your boat each time.

Some purchasers prefer to be able to ring a broker who has a boat in his yard or marina, and know they can see it at their convenience, and perhaps one or two others at the same time, without having to travel to different vendor's berths on different days.

So if we take your real life numbers and assume say 20 buyers each view 9 boats before purchase thats 180 viewings. 160 viewings not resulting in a sale. Thats why some brokers just give out the keys untill real interest, not browsing or research, is demonstrated.

Some purchasers do not want a broker coming with them on their first look at a boat (I don't). My advice to those on the boat hunt is to be upfront with the broker saying something like "I'm looking at various models to draw a short list, but I would like your thoughts and comments whilst I view" or "I'm just browsing let me see the boat alone" or "this is the model I really want and I could be seriously interested in the example you have". The broker will love you for it.


"I'm sure there are some very decent brokers out there, doing a good job for both buyers and sellers - it's just that they are few and far between."

That's sometimes true. But most really want to help get the boat sold. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif We don't get paid otherwise.
 
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Agree with some of what you say..... but not all of it...

Estate agents aren't getting 1.5% on £400k houses..... not round my part of the world..... closer to 0.75% on that value..... and the average property price in the UK is still only £178k, so even at 1.5% thats only £2,670 on the average sale in the UK market.

Secondly, you'd be suprised how much involvement an estate agent has in post negotiation activity around the sale of a house.....

Otherwise, I agree... a good broker is worth their fee in making the transaction safe... its just sad that while you seem to be one of the good guys, we hear far far too many stories on this forum of extremely poor performance from brokers.... the associations seem to be a bit of a joke, and there is little to stop anyone from calling themselves a broker and off they go...

I also agree that broking is not just putting an advert on the internet... its just a shame that there are so many cowboys out there that don't appreciate your very valid point...

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Hi magnacarta

Your points are very true (but I think ABYA is a good set up.)

"...and the average property price in the UK is still only £178k, so even at 1.5% thats only £2,670 on the average sale in the UK market."

So with lawyers fees on both sides of say £500? each thats £3,670.

Average boat at £60,000 thats £3,600 for the average boat sale. (Actually I don't know what the average boat cost is in the UK but would guess that to a lot of us on here that may be about average)



I'm fresh from long term cruising, love the sea and I must confess had a Nightmare with some brokers when buying my boats, so I do understand that people have very genuine reasons for the veiws raised on here, and for those reasons I'm trying to not treat buyers/sellers in the way I was sometimes treated.
We were fairly young to be looking at long distance cruisers and were often completely ignored (you know who you are /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif)

I just wanted to (now I've seen it) put the other point of view. It is a far harder job than many think.
 
Geronimo

We are considering selling our Moody 38 for the same reason, new baby just arrived /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Thanks for your email by the way.
 
'Its also worth remembering that a good broker (should) do the work of the two solicitors as in a house transaction. i.e check title, arrange registration, check no outstanding motrgages or debts on the boat, check and prove RCD and VAT, re-negotiate after survey, hold and distribute monies in escrow, check funds are legitimate and pay outstanding yard bills aside from advertising and face to face selling. Your broker should also ideally be an ABYA member.'

Jonic - I wonder is ha a broker ????

If I sell my boat I know that it has no outstanding debts (liens)
My boat will be CE marked (depending on age)
I will show the the purchaser the survey.

I cant be bothered typing anymore.
But, guess what, Why give a broker a large % of your money ???

Just the same in the housing market, who benefits from high prices?? The banks and the estate agents(BROKERS)
 
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'Its also worth remembering that a good broker (should) do the work of the two solicitors as in a house transaction. i.e check title, arrange registration, check no outstanding motrgages or debts on the boat, check and prove RCD and VAT, re-negotiate after survey, hold and distribute monies in escrow, check funds are legitimate and pay outstanding yard bills aside from advertising and face to face selling. Your broker should also ideally be an ABYA member.'

Jonic - I wonder is ha a broker ????

If I sell my boat I know that it has no outstanding debts (liens)
My boat will be CE marked (depending on age)
I will show the the purchaser the survey.

I cant be bothered typing anymore.
But, guess what, Why give a broker a large % of your money ???

Just the same in the housing market, who benefits from high prices?? The banks and the estate agents(BROKERS)

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Why give a farmer money to grow food when you can do it yourself, why buy fish when you can catch them yourself, why pay an engineer when you can fix it or make it yourself....yawn, yawn.

If I sell my boat I know that it has no outstanding debts (liens)

Good, lets hope your buyer believes you. In a private sell it's buyer beware.

ITS A CHOICE- good grief. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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If you are sellng your boat, you go to your boat each time.


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I do that every weekend anyway /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's nice to see that for once a thread like this one does not degenerate into a slanging match.

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Hi Guapa

I was just thinking that, and what a good real debate we had had, when lawrie whatsit came along.
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Good luck and fair winds when you cast off. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
I can see that this has become broker knocking, but this summer I was looking for a new boat & visited several brokers on the east & south coasts.All of them gave me the keys to veiw & that is fine by me as I prefer to view & rummage on my own.However the thing in common at all the brokers was the condition of the boats.It was obvious that no one from the brokers had inspected the boats for some time.One of them had 6 ins of water in the engine well & they were all(except one which it turns out had only come in a few days before) were in a condition that would not encourage one to buy.I also did a 500 mile round trip to view some boats at various marinas of a well known Chichester/Hayling agent.I had specifically been prompted to see a yacht which was described as superb condition from late 1990s.I happened to mention this to the broker at the same group earlier in the day & he informed me that it was in fact one of the worst yachts that they had seen for its age & they had to carry out a full valet on the inside.He was not joking,I would not have liked to have seen it before the work was done.
So if this seems like broker knocking then in my opinion from what I saw in looking at 30 plus broker boats it is deserved.
I eventually bought privately & most of the private boats I saw were of good condition.
All in my opinion of course.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I can see that this has become broker knocking, but this summer I was looking for a new boat & visited several brokers on the east & south coasts.All of them gave me the keys to veiw & that is fine by me as I prefer to view & rummage on my own.However the thing in common at all the brokers was the condition of the boats.It was obvious that no one from the brokers had inspected the boats for some time.One of them had 6 ins of water in the engine well & they were all(except one which it turns out had only come in a few days before) were in a condition that would not encourage one to buy.I also did a 500 mile round trip to view some boats at various marinas of a well known Chichester/Hayling agent.I had specifically been prompted to see a yacht which was described as superb condition from late 1990s.I happened to mention this to the broker at the same group earlier in the day & he informed me that it was in fact one of the worst yachts that they had seen for its age & they had to carry out a full valet on the inside.He was not joking,I would not have liked to have seen it before the work was done.
So if this seems like broker knocking then in my opinion from what I saw in looking at 30 plus broker boats it is deserved.
I eventually bought privately & most of the private boats I saw were of good condition.
All in my opinion of course.

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Hello

I'm glad someone brought this one up, because it baffles us brokers as much as you purchasers. This is clause five in our listing agreement.

5)I agree to pay all costs associated with preparing the vessel in saleable condition as is mutually agreed between the broker and myself (the vendor).

Most people do one of two things.

1.Get enthused about selling their pride and joy, prepare her beautifully with advice from us brokers on preperation, ventilation etc and a smooth sale results.

2. Ask us to hire a professional valet company, who do a terrific job, with us hosing down the decks and keeping the green at bay.

Others, for reasons none of us can understand, mutually agree to do neither. When prompted the response is "If people know what they want, they can see through it". "or It shows we use it" (when something is filthy and is crying out for a clean).
or "Oh yeah, I'll be down this weekend" or "it's a boat not a holiday cottage". The list goes on.

This irritates us hugely. First because it makes our job more difficult and costs us money, secondly because people blame the broker! When you sell a house, the contract doesn't include the estate agent coming round before each viewing with his hoover and marigolds, or his office junior repairing the garden fence.

We offer advice, we offer cleaning services but we do not own the boat and cannot make the vendor clean it or pay for a valet of his own property. (Although we try our hardest, and luckily the guys I work with now, WILL, work on the boats, put flags up and hose them down, but if the broker has a large stock, say 30 plus, and there is no financial provision in the listing agreement it is impossible to devote that sort of resource, you would need an army of valeters and would soon go bankrupt)

A common misconception is that a valet is paid for out of the brokers sales commission, but as seen from this thread, unless the broker has a sole agency agreement in place the boat can be sold privately by the seller or by another broker. The broker then says goodbye to the money he has spent on a boat valet company.

Unless the contract is also a cleaning and maintainence contract in addition to the listing agreement, the owner should present his boat properly. But they don't and it drives us nuts.

However if it is part of the deal with the broker, then of course the broker should provide the valet and ongoing maintainence.

I tend not to list boats that are poor or have owners who are not interested in the condition of the vessel to help the sale.(Boats owned by the broker, taken in part exchange, are generally the best in the yard!)

I listed a Baveria 35 Holiday yesterday that was in a well presented condition, but she is owned by three individuals who don't want the next person in the group,who comes for their alloted weekend, complaining about the state she was left in. More group owned boats please!

As I have said if the contract does include cleaning, and it is shabby, then the broker only has himself to blame when he complains about negative cashflow because the boats aren't selling.

I am in no way trying to justify poor service, just present the full picture and restore some balance. There ARE lots of knowlegable, professional brokers who love what they do and enjoy meeting the people involved.( And like anything there are crap ones.) But the good ones have 1000's of miles under their keels, a full working knowledge of the legal aspects of the transaction and have first hand knowledge of many, many yachts and their characteristics. If you find a good one look after him and be upfront about your position, and he will look after you. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Now, when shall I start my clients from hell thread? And don't get me started on boatshows! The hairs on the back of your necks will stand up. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Dear Geronimo

I have placed adverts in boats and outboards and YBW.com, I am also using a broker. Would definately favour an advert in YBW.com and one of the sailing magazines such as YM or YBW (for Najad, Hallbergs and the like). The broker has been useful in terms of taking out timewasters and showing people the boat when i can't get to it (surprising how many poeple can visit boats during the week).

Having said that the majority of the leads have been through my private adverts both in the magazines and on line. Granted the brokers are not cheap (typically 4 - 8%) but they remove alot of hassle and also the emotional aspect of boat selling.

My recommendation would be start with the YBW or boatsandoutboard adverts and see what response is and then perhaps handing on to a broker if it gets too much.

I might ad I have no interest in either organisations other than someone trying to optimise the sale of my boat. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Good luck

Simon
 
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Dear Geronimo

I have placed adverts in boats and outboards and YBW.com, I am also using a broker. Would definately favour an advert in YBW.com and one of the sailing magazines such as YM or YBW (for Najad, Hallbergs and the like). The broker has been useful in terms of taking out timewasters and showing people the boat when i can't get to it (surprising how many poeple can visit boats during the week).

Having said that the majority of the leads have been through my private adverts both in the magazines and on line. Granted the brokers are not cheap (typically 4 - 8%) but they remove alot of hassle and also the emotional aspect of boat selling.

My recommendation would be start with the YBW or boatsandoutboard adverts and see what response is and then perhaps handing on to a broker if it gets too much.

I might ad I have no interest in either organisations other than someone trying to optimise the sale of my boat. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Good luck

Simon

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Fair comment
 
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Jonic - Pleeeese do the clients from hell thread. We need both sides of the story and anyway I want to be reassured that I haven't fallen into that category with the brokers!

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I'm very tempted
 
I've just sold my 26ft boat within a month for top money to the first guy to look at her through www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk and it cost me not a penny. I spent a lot of time preparing her and presenting her in tip-top condition. The buyer's surveyor turned up nothing and everyone was happy.

Reading this thread the key therefore seems to be, if she will 'sell herself' then the free websites are a good bet. If the class/price is going to attract a lot of interest, but she is a bit doggy and not many offers made because of her condition, then let a broker have all the grief. (sorry brokers!)
 
[ QUOTE ]


Reading this thread the key therefore seems to be, if she will 'sell herself' then the free websites are a good bet. If the class/price is going to attract a lot of interest, but she is a bit doggy and not many offers made because of her condition, then let a broker have all the grief. (sorry brokers!)

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Hi Oilyrag

Glad you had a smooth transaction, presentation the key again there, but I must take issue with your final comment for the benefit of those who will read this thread.

I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong, perhaps sub £30,000 and 27ft you may have a point, although I would still disagree that the boats are with brokers because they are dodgy.

To put this into perspective I'm dealing with about 20 used yachts at present, the price averages roughly £67,000, with nine yachts above that figure, five of them being over £100,000 and a top level of £159,000. (Two you won't even see advertised as they are being marketed to private clients after two Atlantic and Caribbean circuits.) New boats average about £130,000 rising to £350,000 plus.

Here is an example of a deal I am concluding at the moment.
A three yacht chain of a 40ftr a 44ftr and a 55ftr with a combined total of £684,000. All highly specified high quality yachts owned by knowledgable and very experienced yachtsmen, across three european countries, with ownership both private and through companies, involving road transport, delivery skippers and eight weeks of negotiation. Not the sort of thing you see on a free website and not with a broker because they are a bit dodgy. Quite the opposite.
 
Hi Jonic
Absolutely - I was referring to sub £30K boats and personally would never contemplate spending £100K + except through an established broker.
 
Hi Oily

Thanks. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

About £50,000 seems to be where most people become very uncomfortable dealing with a stranger and having no arbitration, and for others that figure is a lot less.
 
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