How to screw up e-borders

[strakeryrius]

In the light of the info on this thread click its occurred to me that we can really screw up the whole e-borders scheme with a concerted effort to set up a scheme of civil over-obedience.

Basically the whole scheme will be a big database, and we will have to fill in a form on-line and detail points of departure and arrival, with dates and details of the crew. Here's where the fun starts - from the reply in the thread above - if you don't actually land you don't have to fill in an e-borders form. What's more we are going to have a 24 hour window to cancel on grounds of weather or safety.

So here's what we do.

Every weekend, and I do mean every weekend regardless, every recreational boater/sailor enters a passage plan to go to France (or anywhere else of choice in the EU) but makes it difficult for the database by choosing somewhere other than a designated port-of-departure. In the drop down box on the on-line form you select "other" and then put in the most obscure place you can think of for both point of departure and arrival. Even better - just the LAT and LON of your chosen spots - that'll really make the database operators earn their money.

Then as part of the crew list make sure that you include Osama bin-Laden, at least one MP (chosen at random) and some other random celebrity or security risk. That'll make the security services sit up and take notice.

Then you let the date and time of departure elapse, just to ensure that its all been properly entered into the database, and after a random period of between 1 & 24 hours you log back on to e-borders and hit the cancel button.

If challenged you say - "Oh we decided not to go in the end, but we entered the plan in advance as required by law so as to comply with e-borders"

I reckon that after a couple of months of this the "powers that be" will be quite fed up with a database full of worthless [--word removed--] info that has set alarm bells ringing at MI5/MI6 or whoever is monitoring all the useless info that they will collect. 100,000 boaters putting down that they have O b-L on board and having to check them all out may p1ss them off just a tad! Especially when all the passage plans are then cancelled AFTER they have had to do all the wasted legwork. And maybe, just maybe, they might decide to have a rethink as to whether recreational boaters might be a special case.

Whaddya think? You up for it?

 

[nonitoo]

I am having a bit of a problem seeing what the fuss is all about.

In part of my previous life (up until a year ago when I stopped flying privately) I had to submit a list of travellers on departure on a form that was dropped in a letter box at the departure airport, the same was required on arrival back in the UK. I have no idea what became of these forms.

Ok, I know I had to submit a flight plan when going abroad but that only had to be submitted one hour before departure and that did require approval.

Perhaps I have missed something but none of the correspondence I have seen mentions gaining approval for the passage so why the problem with submitting the information on departure and again on arrival.

It it the electronic messaging that is causing the furore of the fact that it has to be done at all ?

Tom

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
I am having a bit of a problem seeing what the fuss is all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly because the system won't achieve anything where leisure boaters are concerned. Those who are bringing in illegal immigrants (does that really happen?) just won't submit a report. Once again, the system will only inconvenience the law abiding, whilst doing nothing about those up to no good.

The other issue is that filing a report from a boat can be impossible in many cases. For example - you could be sailing from the Azores to France when a change in the weather means aiming for the UK is safer - but as you're offshore, you can't file a report. So do you risk becoming a criminal and alter to the safer course, or stay with your original and no unsafe plan?

 

[Talulah]

Why stop with one entry?
Once the eborders system is up it shouldn't take too much to write a program that will create an entry for every single possible point of departure within your area and every possible point of arrival within your boats range. Couple this with all the possible return permutations and you could flood the system.
An enterprising person would create a web site where you could enter your boats home berth. It would then create every possible entry for you and automatically cancel every time. If you actually did go out and back again you could log on to get it not to cancel the actual trip you made.
How's that for a business idea?
In addition to every permutation of departure/arival you could add in every permutation of crew.

 

[rwoofer]

When I read the original post I was also thinking that flooding the database would be the best way to show how ridiculous the system is. I don't think we need to put silly names on the crew such as OBL or mickey mouse, as I'm sure they will find a way to prosecute for that. The thing we've got on our side is the weather, which is considered a legit change to circumstances. Would love to know a few more details though to figure how to make a real mockery of the scheme.

I also always thought smuggling operations were always done by a fast rib meeting mothership offshore. No need to report anything, Rib gets to shore very quickly, all immigrants scarper.

 

[Eastermaid]

"I am having a bit of a problem seeing what the fuss is all
about."

Well said I reality how many times do most of us cross the channel, I for one want some sort of border control for our Island, perhaps all those against it could come up with a better Idea, to try and protect our borders. Perhaps haveing to personally go to UKBA office with all crews passport and register properly is the answer for all those who say its a waste of time. At least if a vessel which enters uk water who hasn't submitted passage plan is worth a look. It may be they just forgot or had no internet access. And as for putting MPs on your list dont you think anyone the sedret service care about submit there scedule to them in advance. Me thinks anyone submitting plans like this would be the one most hindered by the system stopped regularly while cruising down the Solent.

 

[Chrusty1]

"Well said I reality how many times do most of us cross the channel,"

Well I was having a bit of a wonder about this......Now don't shoot me, but I was wondering just how many (in the greater scheme of things), this E-Borders malarkey will affect??

I haven't a clue as to how many sailor folk. motor or raggie, actually go foreign on a regular basis, but percentage wise, is it that many? I would suggest in fact that the vast majority of boat use, is confined to British home waters?

I have a feeling that the ney sayers, are reacting on a point of principal really, not on the real effect that E-Borders will have on British yachtsmen? It is an understandable reaction, and one that I can and do empathise with, I am sure that the last thing that any of us want, is even more control and legislation, but I do believe that we need "border control" of some sort, because to be honest, the British coastline is, and always has been, an absolute nightmare to police. I really don't think that E-Borders will change that, though I can offer no practical suggestions as to what will.

 

[thefatlady]

[ QUOTE ]
the British coastline is, and always has been, an absolute nightmare to police.

[/ QUOTE ] Our sea border problems are miniscule compared to, say, the Italians, who have a huge coastline and many, many people trying to enter. They still don't see the need to police their own citizens the way HMG do.

 

[Chrusty1]

"Don't expect mere proof to sway my opinion. "

Best I don't engage with you then, isn't it. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Changed my mind....

British coastline......11'072.76 miles

Italian coastline 4'712 miles.

 

[nonitoo]

I suspect that I might be one of the regular cross channel users being based in Dover and having Boulogne and Calais on my doorstep.

I cannot see the problem if I have to pop into the marina office before departure and let someone know who is crossing that day and when I might be coming back.

If there is no facility at my departure port for inward reporting to the UK then there is little I can do about it other than be willing to declare my arrival when I get back home.

Mind you, if I had to obtain approval for the passage, that would be a different thing ........................!

Tom

 

[Chrusty1]

Yes I agree, having to gain approval would be extremely unacceptable, what would stop them from having an approved travellor list, if you weren't on it you would be a prisoner in your own country! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

A thought just occured, though I dare say that somebody has already thought of it? Short of physical interception What would stop a vessel leaving our shores, rendezvousing with a "foreign" vessel and taking off whatever, then returning to port........ E-Borders wouldn't be much use in that scenario would it? Seeing as a domestic trip doesn't need to be registered.

 

[thefatlady]

I won't dispute your figures, but over 11,000 miles for the UK must include an awful lot of convolutions which are not very relevant, especially Scotland. In any case, I didn't compare coast length, only problems.

The UK only has EU coasts within easy reach. Italy has North Africa and Eastern Europe a short distance away. When was the last time the UK Coastguard picked up boatloads of sinking, starving illegal immigrants? For what it's worth, I have a relative who is very senior in the Guardia Finanza in Sicily. Part of his job is responsibility for six of their equivalent of coastguard boats. He tells some graphic stories.

I maintain my claim.

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is no facility at my departure port for inward reporting to the UK then there is little I can do about it other than be willing to declare my arrival when I get back home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the way our officials zealously apply their rules, my concern is that common sense will not be applied, and you will end up guilty of a crime by not filing a plan beforehand, no matter how impossible.

[ QUOTE ]
Mind you, if I had to obtain approval for the passage, that would be a different thing ........................!

[/ QUOTE ]

They want you to file the plan for departure precisely because they want oversight and may not want to allow you or your passengers to leave. It is in effect an exit visa....

 

[strakeryrius]

Quote:
I cannot see the problem if I have to pop into the marina office before departure and let someone know who is crossing that day and when I might be coming back.

If there is no facility at my departure port for inward reporting to the UK then there is little I can do about it other than be willing to declare my arrival when I get back home.


That isn't how its proposed that it will work. You will need to file your plan along with full details of crew etc on-line in advance of travel - both to and from the UK - meaning access to an Internet enabled computer - and the penalty for failing to do so will be a fine or imprisonment. Does that change the complection of e-borders for you a little?

 

[Chrusty1]

"I won't dispute your figures, but over 11,000 miles for the UK must include an awful lot of convolutions which are not very relevant, especially Scotland. In any case, I didn't compare coast length, only problems."

I wouldn't dispute your comments about problems, but from a policing point of view, it is those very miriad convolutions, all those little creeks and tiny drying harbours, all those isolated lochs, and river estuaries that are at the heart of the problem.

 

[blampied]

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Think you will find UK Gov dosn't do anything for nothing.
They won't charge for registering the travel plans for the first year or so, until it is well established! But from then onwards it will be just another tax grab scheme, the Gov will impose a so called administration fee, for every entry. Maybe starting at a fiver but probabally becoming something like 20 quid a couple of years after!!

Here in Jersey we will be caught out more than most. Being only a few miles from the French coat. So far this year we have already managed 5 trips to France. It's usually a last minute desission baced on the weather as I walk out of work at 5pm on a Friday afternoon, and we leave half an hour or so later.
If I have to register a day in advance, chances are many of the trips in future will just not happen.
/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[nonitoo]

Indeed it does and if the scenario is as you describe then I would be angry but all these points would seem to be under discussion and so it is a bit fruitless becoming too excited at this stage before any concrete proposals have been agreed.

Tom

 

[Frontier]

Its been under discussion for quite a while, but in all I have seen its always been a fundamental element that you log it online.

I believe (but could be wrong) that its all decided now and is to be implemented by 2014. Its just people like the RYA and boaters trying to change what has already been decided by the no-nothing about real life Government. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[alanch]

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect that I might be one of the regular cross channel users being based in Dover and having Boulogne and Calais on my doorstep.

I cannot see the problem if I have to pop into the marina office before departure and let someone know who is crossing that day and when I might be coming back.

If there is no facility at my departure port for inward reporting to the UK then there is little I can do about it other than be willing to declare my arrival when I get back home.

Mind you, if I had to obtain approval for the passage, that would be a different thing ........................!

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that you only went foreign when you were overcarried Tom!

 

[Searush]

The official approach is likely to be; any one who files is unlikely to be dodgy. So, simply harrass those that don't have a passage plan but pop up on radar/ ais or whatever.

Multiple cancelled plans will ring even bigger alarm bells that none-submission. Try that & you will be stopped & searched every time you leave the harbour/ marina. See who gets tired of that malarky first. Especially if you have had a wee drink or three.

In all law enforcement situations, the trick is to not draw attention to yourself.

"Evening all & mind how you go!" Knees bend & salute.