How to get proof of ownership

[braithra]

Hi

I own a Contessa 32, but dont have the original logbook/proof of sale from the boatyard. The folks at Jeremy Rogers yard have confirmed against the hull no that she was originall called Sunrise, sold on the 21/7/1977 and had Sail number K 5990 (552). Any advice on how i could get appropriate paperwork to ensure i meet the European standards - such as VAT receipt etc.

Any ideas on how to trace a boats history welcome

Thanks in advance

Bob B

 

[sailorman]

Did you get a VAT receipt upon purchase ?? how long have you owned her
you dont need an original VAT paid receipt

 

[pvb]

As long as you have the Bill of Sale from when you bought it, I don't think anyone will ever be concerned.

 

[braithra]

VAT was introduced in 1973 and the boat was built/sold in the UK in 1977. I though if you want to France/Europe then their Customs etc can demand to see original proof of VAT/ownership ?

 

[Tranona]

Hi

I own a Contessa 32, but dont have the original logbook/proof of sale from the boatyard. The folks at Jeremy Rogers yard have confirmed against the hull no that she was originall called Sunrise, sold on the 21/7/1977 and had Sail number K 5990 (552). Any advice on how i could get appropriate paperwork to ensure i meet the European standards - such as VAT receipt etc.

Any ideas on how to trace a boats history welcome

Thanks in advance

Bob B

Unless the previous owners have kept the documentary evidence there is no chance of getting it - nor is there any real need. Assuming your boat has always been in the EU it is "deemed VAT paid" by virtue of its age. Anything pre 1986 only has to show that it was in the EU in 1992 to qualify for this status - not that there is any likelihood that you will ever be asked to prove it. There are no "European Standards" to meet!

Your title to the boat relies on the clean Bill of Sale from the person you bought it from, and hopefully that person was also able to provide previous Bills of Sale showing that he had title. Again there is no need to "prove" this - it is only your protection against others who might have claim on your boat.

There is much more information on these issues on the RYA site, explaining what ownership is, the types of documents you might see or require and explanations of the complex rules on VAT. There is little for you to worry about - you are in the same position as thousands of other boat owners who also have minimal documentary evidence about their older boats.

No simple way of tracing history of an individual boat although class associations may help as will any leads from earlier documentation - for example if it was ever on the Part 1 register.

 

[prv]

European officials will want to see a registration document to prove that it's a British vessel. You can either register on the main Shipping Register ("Part One") or the Small Ships Register ("SSR"). The latter is far simpler.

Beyond that, the only person interested in proof that you own it will be whoever ends up buying from you. The Bill of Sale from the previous owner to you is the conventional means, but it's up to the buyer what he'll accept, which may well be as simple as you obviously being in possession of the boat.

After all, you don't worry about proof of ownership for your fridge or telly, do you?

Pete

 

[sailorman]

European officials will want to see a registration document to prove that it's a British vessel. You can either register on the main Shipping Register ("Part One") or the Small Ships Register ("SSR"). The latter is far simpler.

Beyond that, the only person interested in proof that you own it will be whoever ends up buying from you. The Bill of Sale from the previous owner to you is the conventional means, but it's up to the buyer what he'll accept, which may well be as simple as you obviously being in possession of the boat.

After all, you don't worry about proof of ownership for your fridge or telly, do you?

Pete

Or car when abroad

 

[macd]

braithra: Tranona's right, as he usually is. It might seem strange that VAT came in in '73 yet boats sold 12 years later need no proof it was ever paid, but that's the way it is.

 

[braithra]

Brilliant, thanks for all the inputs

 

[GrahamM376]

Hi
Any advice on how i could get appropriate paperwork to ensure i meet the European standards - such as VAT receipt etc.

You have a computer so produce your own paperwork - some foreign officials don't understand what they're reading anyway and will accept anything which has a red frilly stick-on seal on it

 

[duncan99210]

I've said it before but there's no harm in repeating it.... We've been cruising round Europe for six years now. All we've ever been asked for in terms of paperwork for the boat is the SSR and insurance certificate. The only time you'd need to worry about proving VAT status is if you were sailing a new boat arriving into the EU from outside and even then in most places not much interest unless it happened to be flying a non EU flag.

 

[macd]

I've said it before but there's no harm in repeating it.... We've been cruising round Europe for six years now. All we've ever been asked for in terms of paperwork for the boat is the SSR and insurance certificate.

Which sums it all up really, since the only authority on earth which doesn't consider the SSR appropriate for six years around Europe is the body which issues it. Strange but true. :ambivalence:

 

[superheat6k]

Various Brokers I have dealt with will normally accept 5 or so years of ownership history as being sufficient to prove valid ownership, along with your purchase BOS. If the boat has ever been Pt 1 registered and you can trace ownership from the last registration then that is cast iron, because Pt 1 states who owned the vessel and this can't be challenged. You can easily verify expired Pt 1 certificate authenticity.

Keep whatever document you have even if it is an email from Jeremy Rogers yard stating the hull number and year of manufacture.

All this adds to the providence of your ownership.

Having the boat SSR (pt 3) registered is straightforward and cheap. Should you ever be asked about VAT in say France the fact you would be flying a British Ensign on a British registered boat would mean you can clearly state any matter of VAT is one between you and the British HMRC, but as has been stated likelihood of being asked is very very remote.

I have never seen anyone on here ever mention being challenged to prove VAT pre 1985, nor where their boat was moored in 1992. However, the RYA will likely give you the party line on all this.

When I bought my Fairline built and first sold in 1986 the VAT invoice disappeared during the sale ! However, I was able to obtain a copy from Fairline after the purchase was completed. I now have the complete title chain, but of most significance was the previous owner had the boat Pt 1 registered for most of his 15 years of ownership.

 

[macd]

Pt 1 states who owned the vessel and this can't be challenged.

Funny that.
My part 1 has a section entitled "Name and address of owner(s)", who are duly listed.
Beneath that, under the heading "IMPORTANT INFORMATION" (not me shouting, it's capitalized), it somewhat illogically states that:
"A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".

I've never quite known what to make of that.

 

[zambant]

You have a computer so produce your own paperwork - some foreign officials don't understand what they're reading anyway and will accept anything which has a red frilly stick-on seal on it

.......do it

 

[GrahamM376]

Funny that.
My part 1 has a section entitled "Name and address of owner(s)", who are duly listed.
Beneath that, under the heading "IMPORTANT INFORMATION" (not me shouting, it's capitalized), it somewhat illogically states that:
"A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".

I've never quite known what to make of that.

It's rather like a car logbook where the registered keeper is noted but the beneficial owner may be a finance company until paid for.

 

[Tranona]

Funny that.
My part 1 has a section entitled "Name and address of owner(s)", who are duly listed.
Beneath that, under the heading "IMPORTANT INFORMATION" (not me shouting, it's capitalized), it somewhat illogically states that:
"A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership".

I've never quite known what to make of that.

Yes, The Part 1 is a REGISTER of title - in other words you have to establish title before you can register. Also there is no compulsion to register any change in title, so it is only a record of title at the time of registration. Secure evidence of change of title (such as a valid Bill of Sale) overrides any previous title.

Further, as Graham says, it is not necessarily a record of beneficial ownership, although in most cases Title and Ownership rest with the same person or entity.