how to atttach headlining to vertical walls

[catmandoo]

Whats the best way to attach headlining ?

Current installation has thin plywood panels with HL glued on then screwed into GRP in flat areas and ceilings or glued directly in areas with change of direction .

What is best adhesive? Is it best attached like wallpaper with adhesive uniformly spread or in patches .?

Don't intend to fit foam backed as foam will deteriorate after time into black dust

 

[VicS]

A waterproof PVA wood glue is the stuff to glue the HL on to ply. Water based so no nasty fumes.

Onto grp I don't think there is any alternative to a solvent based impact adhesive.

I found a good plan was to apply that to the grp and a spray-on adhesive to the back of the HL. With the vertical bits I sprayed a band along the top, got that in position then sprayed the rest from behind.

If you get all materials from Hawke House (Google will find the url) they will send a useful hints and tips leaflet.

Don't forget a solvent based adhesive in a confined space is lethal. Good forced ventilation is vital AND an "Organic vapours " mask (Available from HH)

Adhesive spread evenly not in patches.

If not using foam backed stuff make sure the surfaces are reasonably smooth as it wont hide irregularities like the foam backed stuff will.

Velcro works well to supplement screws for fixing ply panels in place. Screws in strategic locations and velcro in between. Use two strips on each surface at right angle to each other so that when put togeter you get a # pattern with 4 points of contact.

 

[samwise]

Specialist headlining suppliers such as Hawke House have excellent advice notes and will also advise on appropriate adhesives. Yiou could, if course talk to any Westerly owner who is likely to be a veteran HL fixer! Modern foam backed linings should not deteriorate in the same way as the older stuff responsible for most of the Westerly woes. Vic's point about it smoothing irregularities is a good one and there is also the noise and thermal insulation gain. If you are going somewhere hot, i.e. the Med or further, you will need stronger stuff than PVA otherwise you may face a touch of the droops. In my experience ( I own a Wwesterly) the thin panel option provides the best result and it does give you easier access to wiring etc.

 

[Guest]

Some people choose to paint rather than re-line, but I recently re-lined an overhead area using a can of spray Bostik (spray Evostick appears to be identical) which was very easy to do, and is holding up well.
The fumes are very 'petrol-y', so either ventilate well or inhale deeply and put on some vintage Pink Floyd.
Colin

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
The fumes are very 'petrol-y'

[/ QUOTE ] Mostly impact adhesives are toluene based, that is deadly in confined spaces hence the earlier recommendation to use an "Organic Vapours" mask AND ventilate well. I have noticed recently heptane being used as the solvent . It is less hazardous than toluene but it is still hazardous enough to employ the same precautions.

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going somewhere hot, i.e. the Med or further, you will need stronger stuff than PVA

[/ QUOTE ] I know that for warmer climates a high temperature version of the impact adhesives is recommended (It's available from Hawke House) but this is the first time I have seen it suggested that PVA is not suitable for higher temperatures. Are you sure about it?

 

[jerryat]

Talk to Hawke House as suggested earlier. They will almost certainly recommend that you use a spray adhesive on the foam and their 'HH' (high heat) adhesive on the panel. They did with me and the results are, quite genuinely, perfect.

One tip that amazed me as well 'feeling wrong', if you see what I mean, was to remove the panels from the boat (obvious, and eliminates or hugely reduces the toxic fumes thing) place the headlining on a flat surface - carpet is fine - and spray the adhesive on. Put the other adhesive on the plywood panel with the scraper provided and allow both the 'dry'. That is to be touch dry.

Turn the plywood over and lower it onto the foam. I fully expected there to be loads of air bubbles etc, but NOTHING was there, except a perfectly flat suface! Superb!! THEN, wait at LEAST 24 hours before turning the edges over and either gluing or stapling them into place. This allows the face material to 'settle' and produces and truly fab finish.

I did the whole of my boat about two years ago using Hawke House materials AND advice and, as my surveyor states in his report, it is far better than new. Very satisfying!

I have heard of PVA adhesive being used, but only on this forum. I have not yet personally met anyone who has used it with success in, as we were, the Med. and Caribbean.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I do know the stuff I used DOES! None of Hawke House's stuff is cheap, but the quality, and especially the advice, was first class. That's the way I'd go.

 

[yoda]

Solvite wall paper paste, obviously easier if you can do it flat and for the removable panels makes a lot of sense. Mine are fine a year down the road.

Yoda

 

[tyce]

Any spray on glue from any carpet warehouse, cheap and does the job for me.

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard of PVA adhesive being used, but only on this forum

[/ QUOTE ]

It was supplied but Hawke House for that purpose. Specifically it was Tradebond WA25 but I notice what they now supply is WA40

The contact adhesive supplied was Contact Adhesive BS111 from H B Fuller but that is probably not a high temperature one. They now supply Tradegrip HH.
The spray on material was Trade Tak, which they still supply.

Being solvent free I was able to use the PVA glue indoors on a clean floor (lounge carpet)

Perfect results around and now 6 years down the line.

 

[jerryat]

""Perfect results around and now 6 years down the line. ""

I'm sure you're right Vic, but as I said, I've personally not yet met anyone who has used the PVA glue AND spent a lot of time in the Med/Caribbean.

It is possibly perfectly ok, but when I visited Hawke House (several times) prior to placing my order and mentioned we would be going back down to the Med and on to the Caribbean again, the HH (high heat) and spray adhesive was the definite recommendation.

From your experience, it seems that being in the UK where the average temperatures are much less, the PVA has worked well, but as I say, I'm yet to be convinced of its effectiveness over a long period in very hot climes.

Mind you, the way climate change is going, it'll soon be as hot here! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm yet to be convinced of its effectiveness over a long period in very hot climes.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not yet convinced that PVA will fail in hot climes, Maybe you are right but if you are I guess it is not used as a wood working glue anywhere warm.

One day I'll stick some bits of wood together with it (I've got plenty left!) and put them somewhere really warm to see what happens.

Anything that does not use toluene has got to be good news for the user, the environment and possibly even the life of the foam backing.

I would not have used it though if it was not something Hawke House sold for the purpose.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
Mostly impact adhesives are toluene based, that is deadly in confined spaces hence the earlier recommendation to use an "Organic Vapours" mask AND ventilate well. I have noticed recently heptane being used as the solvent . It is less hazardous than toluene but it is still hazardous enough to employ the same precautions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we need to keep the dangers from modern solvent formulae in proportion, especially as the manufacturers are making their over-the-counter products much less toxic in view of the propensity of some young people to engage in solvent abuse.

For the record (from Bostik's own MSDS sheet) Fast-Tak contains:
Acetone (5-10%)
Butane (5-10%)
Butanone (5-10%)
DiMethyl Ether (10-30%)
Heptane (10-30%)

Users are cautioned that "Vapours may cause drowsiness and dizziness. May cause lung damage if swallowed."


Contrast this with the Industrial Grade Contact Spray MSDS warning:
Inhalation: This product may cause irritation to the respiratory system. Excessive inhalation of this material causes headache, dizziness, nausea and incoordination. Possibly unconsciousness and asphyxiation.

I think it's fair to conclude that if used sensibly - meaning keeping ventilation optimised, perhaps with a small fan to vent the boat - and taking frequent breaks away from the area - that these spray adhesives are perfectly safe to use in practice. Otherwise they wouldn't be so freely for sale to the General Public on the High Street.

Colin

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we need to keep the dangers from modern solvent formulae in proportion

[/ QUOTE ]

Adhesives containing toluene are very hazardous. Personally I was very nearly overcome when using one and I know other people have been as well, some have taken some appreciable time to recover. Damage to internal organs can be permanent and the true extent of the damage not apparent until years later.

There is no substitute for good ventilation as even the masks have an upper limit to the concentration of vapour they can handle but once the ambient level is below that concentration they are very effective.

As already indicated I am aware that there is a move towards less hazardous solvents , at least in products for the domestic market, but Tradegrip HH, the adhesive sold by Hawke House does in fact contain toluene among other solvents.

"good ventilation by means of extraction (local exhaust ventilation) at point of use"
and "respiratory equipment where there is a risk of exposure to high vapour concentrations" are the recommendations from the material safety data sheet.

To suggesting "a small fan to vent the boat" as the only necessary precaution is in my opinion seriously irresponsible. Perhaps though you have measured toluene and other solvent vapour concentrations in your boat while using contact adhesives with only a small fan for ventilation. In which case please quote them and if they are below the occupational exposure limits I will bow to your superior knowledge but until then I will continue to recommend a good size fan and a mask.

For those who are concerned about their health a suitable mask is a 3M4251 and for those who enjoy ready safety literature the data for Tradegrip HH is
HERE

Remember also that all the solvents are highly flammable, therefore any fans used must be suitable for use in a flammable environment. No sense in protecting yourself from the effects of the solvents but blowing your boat and yourself up in doing so!