How strong a halyard for MOB retrieval?

[ylop]

Prevention is always preferable to a cure. Think of the sea as a pool of boiling lava. 1200 deg C. Or concentrated hydrochloric acid. Like that you will never fall in. So avoid going forward, harnesses , short tethers and jackstays well designed and tested.

If you were sailing in stuff like that you’d never go out, or at least not in conditions with waves and spray.

Why expend so much effort - mental and physical - on recovering MOBs?

If a crewman's not capable of keeping himself aboard in the first place then he's not worth having; so why would you want to mess about recovering him?

The insurance will pay out quicker if she brings my body back, and dragging it along side is bound to slow the speed through water ;-)

 

[Dogone]

If you were sailing in stuff like that you’d never go out, or at least not in conditions with waves and spray.

Not at all. My point was one should take such measures to ensure risks are miniscule - close to zero. I believe to do that is feasible and practical.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Not at all. My point was one should take such measures to ensure risks are miniscule - close to zero. I believe to do that is feasible and practical.

Indeed but we can debate all day about what minuscule means and it would be irrelevant. MOB is a low probability but high consequence event, hence the reason why we have mitigations in place to prevent and to recover from. If it was low probability, low consequence, personally speaking, I wouldn't bother with any MOB stuff.

The probability of MOB can never be zero, unless you don't go sailing. Then again, David Balfour was kidnapped (-;

 

[thinwater]

If you were sailing in stuff like that you’d never go out, or at least not in conditions with waves and spray....

That would be a disincentive to boat ownership!

I thought people on the Great Salt Lake or Dead Sea had it rough.

---

(I sailed on the Great Salt Lake once. The boat floated considerably above the design waterline and I had no interest in swimming. I was told it was about 4 times saltier than the ocean where we were.)

 

[thinwater]

Not at all. My point was one should take such measures to ensure risks are miniscule - close to zero. I believe to do that is feasible and practical.

I've spent 40 years rock climbing nearly every week. Yes, this is feasible. Much of it is mindset and constant situational awareness, but safety gear also plays a part. Outside of bouldering, falling to the ground is usually fatal or maiming.

You get past the fear of falling, but the awareness must be constant.

 

[BobnLesley]

If you were sailing in stuff like that you’d never go out, or at least not in conditions with waves and spray.

The insurance will pay out quicker if she brings my body back, and dragging it along side is bound to slow the speed through water ;-)

Very valid points

 

[ylop]

Not at all. My point was one should take such measures to ensure risks are miniscule - close to zero. I believe to do that is feasible and practical.

My point was that I can see the risk of falling overboard and quite likely not surviving without making artificial risks. If you perceive the risks as high as you say people would only use marinas. One of the most common ways to have an unintended swim is getting from dinghy to boat or vice versa.

 

[Dogone]

One of the most common ways to have an unintended swim is getting from dinghy to boat or vice versa.

Indeed it is. I’ve been in twice and my guests too, several times. Luckily in warm water. It the water were ice cold I believe those incidents would not have happened. It underscores my point about guarding from falling in when the consequences are dire.

 

[Graham_Wright]

For the record.
My topping lift is a 12mm halyard (used to hoist a static line when using my MastaClimba to ascend the mast) and could, conceivably be used for MOB recovery. However, it would take time to detach it from the boom end. Sailing two up, there is a competition between keeping on eye on and other necessities.
In my case, I am fully confident that if I had a need to drop sails or re-rig halyards, the MOB would be out of sight.
I have a trysail halyard available plus two spare halyards before the mast. One of these now has a length of red line spliced to it to increase the length to reach the anchor winch drum and to make it visible and avoid time lost trying to work out what goes where.
Anyone who has practised MOB will be aware how quickly a head disappears behind the waves.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... Anyone who has practised MOB will be aware how quickly a head disappears behind the waves.

Which is why we have dan buoys, lights on horseshoes, lights on lifejackets, PLBs with AIS and GPS, plotters with MOB buttons. Current plotters will take into account drift due to wind and tide, and have built in search patterns. All good for reducing risk. There are dye packs as well for day time use Ocean Safety Sea Marker Dye - Suffolk Marine Safety

It is possible to go OTT (groan) in preparation for MOB and if that old trope, all the gear and no idea, is representative, its all a waste of time.

I have sailed since the late 70's and I am confident in handling boats under sail. It was only 5 years ago that I realised that I could not recover a MOB from the water, easily, when I actually had to demonstrate it. This resulted in Post #3 in this thread. and me buying Life Savers and MOB Retrieval Kit. It works very well and my lighter, less confident partner, can easily secure me to the boat and lift me out the water.

I have no commercial association with the company that sells the kit except as a customer.

 

[thinwater]

Another product, ubiquitous in the US because it works and has been proven for many decades, is the life sling.

Lifesling
In-use, not company video.

inspection tips
preparation guide
There are UK and EU equivalanets, though this may not be as good.

There are even good DIY versions. This one was developed by a Japanese coast guard officer; I've tested it, and it's pretty good.
DIY version, PDF
DIY version, English

 

[Graham_Wright]

Which is why we have dan buoys, lights on horseshoes, lights on lifejackets, PLBs with AIS and GPS, plotters with MOB buttons. Current plotters will take into account drift due to wind and tide, and have built in search patterns. All good for reducing risk. There are dye packs as well for day time use Ocean Safety Sea Marker Dye - Suffolk Marine Safety

It is possible to go OTT (groan) in preparation for MOB and if that old trope, all the gear and no idea, is representative, its all a waste of time.

I have sailed since the late 70's and I am confident in handling boats under sail. It was only 5 years ago that I realised that I could not recover a MOB from the water, easily, when I actually had to demonstrate it. This resulted in Post #3 in this thread. and me buying Life Savers and MOB Retrieval Kit. It works very well and my lighter, less confident partner, can easily secure me to the boat and lift me out the water.

I have no commercial association with the company that sells the kit except as a customer.

I don't see how that helps reaching a MOB. You need to get alongside to hook on. Whereas, with a Jimmy Green (et al) tethered life sling, you have a much bigger pickup target.
I like the idea of a locking carabiner, much better than a screw up one or a snap hook.
It's on the list!

 

[xyachtdave]

Another product, ubiquitous in the US because it works and has been proven for many decades, is the life sling.

Lifesling
In-use, not company video.

inspection tips
preparation guide
There are UK and EU equivalanets, though this may not be as good.

There are even good DIY versions. This one was developed by a Japanese coast guard officer; I've tested it, and it's pretty good.
DIY version, PDF
DIY version, English

That youtube clip was painful to watch. Any ideas why the boat was motoring around the casualty flat out?

 

[ylop]

I don't see how that helps reaching a MOB. You need to get alongside to hook on. Whereas, with a Jimmy Green (et al) tethered life sling, you have a much bigger pickup target.
I like the idea of a locking carabiner, much better than a screw up one or a snap hook.
It's on the list!

I don't think you've understood the problem RAH is highlighting. There's actually multiple failure points in a MOB:

1. Knowing the person has fallen overboard
2. Finding the person who fell overboard
3. Getting the boat close enough to them to recover
4. Securing the casualty to the boat so they don't drift away during the next steps
5. getting the casualty out of the water and on deck.

These problems are all different with a conscious and unconscious casualty. Potentially different depending on size of crew, weather etc too.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I have understood all the points and agree with them all.
My question was how the equipment referenced by RAH is better than a tethered life sling.

 

[ylop]

I have understood all the points and agree with them all.
My question was how the equipment referenced by RAH is better than a tethered life sling.

OK so lets assume your casualty is unconscious. Tell us how you do steps 3,4,5 assuming it was only you and the casualty who were on board. They are in a fully inflated lifejacket unable to help you or themselves. Have you actually tried it? With your weakest crew member on board and biggest in the water? I've done it via the sugar scoop - which is probably OK in the sort of conditions I enjoy sailing in.

I think there are other ways to do it and I suspect RAH also has throw line or life sling on board so its not a "replacement".

 

[Dockhead]

I have understood all the points and agree with them all.
My question was how the equipment referenced by RAH is better than a tethered life sling.

I think his point was that a dan buoy helps with Phases 2 and 3, especially 2, and a life sling is for Phases 4 and 5. So they are not substitutes for each other. I carry both.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I have understood all the points and agree with them all.
My question was how the equipment referenced by RAH is better than a tethered life sling.

1. The lifesavers allow a boat hook to be used to secure the lifesaver and attach to the boat. It negates the most difficult part, in my opinion, actually grabbing the MOB.
2. The life sling is a good idea, I carry one, but it requires the MOB to be conscious to use it, otherwise you are relying on luck that it will catch as you circle round. In my waters, cold shock is very likely and rapid debilitation followed by unconsciousness is to be expected. Also, you need to be able to reach down to the life sling lifting point, which may not be a straightforward thing to achieve. Not all lifejackets have lifting points, so in this case, a life sling could be useful.

In my case, sailing predominately as a couple, on my boat, this is what I have settled on: lifesavers on all my lifejackets, and an 8:1 lifting tackle, which I connect to my spinnikar halyard to raise to a working height, then cleat off. The topping lift, spare genoa halyard and mainsail halyard can all be used as well. Other end goes on the lifesling, easy peasy.

Personally, my experience is that you need to get the boat alongside, upwind, to lift MOB out, positioning the boat by sail or motor.

As I said earlier, develop a system that works for you and practise, iron out the issues, so you have a working system you can rely on, without the MOB aiding you in any way (irrespective of water temperature).

I have reversed over my life sling chopping the lanyard. This happened practising, demoing, a very useful method. Do the so called crash stop by tacking (in a controlled way but don’t release genoa sheets, dump main sheet, heave too. Normally you will be upwind of MOB, and the next steps only work if you are. Switch on engine, then use reverse to back up to MOB remaining heave too, up wind, then with bursts of reverse and forward, drift down onto MOB, kill engine, recover MOB. This method is just another tool in the box. Try it with a bucket and fender.

I have done hundreds of MOB drills. As said earlier, only when I had to demonstrate MOB recovery onto the boat, that I realised I didn’t have a clue how to do that successfully, confidently. Hence I landed on the kit stated and have drilled with that.

It’s great that you’re developing a method and questioning stuff. All the best with your endeavours, and I hope my experience gives you food for thought.

 

[thinwater]

That youtube clip was painful to watch. Any ideas why the boat was motoring around the casualty flat out?

The way you move the sling to the casualty is to trail it in the water while circling. It worked.

(I'm not suggesting the Lifesling replaces other gear. It is one tool, a proven very effective tool for many situations.)

 

[xyachtdave]

The way you move the sling to the casualty is to trail it in the water while circling. It worked.

(I'm not suggesting the Lifesling replaces other gear. It is one tool, a proven very effective tool for many situations.)

Ok that explains that then, thanks. I was surprised a fully crewed (minus 1 or 2 persons of course) race boat couldn't get him onboard quicker by positioning the boat alongside and using the available muscle.