How secure is your ownership?

[DavidJ]

Just following the maths, its a case of the “new owner” coughing up an extra £10,846 and all will be set right. (47x 64/52 minus 47)
They will be reluctant to do that but faced with total confiscation of the boat they will have little choice.
The legal fees though could swamp this but the “new owner” would also be aware of his fees and may cooperate.

 

[yachtpilot]

Don't underestimate the amount of work there is out there doing even the semi-skilled stuff; some owners don't want or don't have the time to do antifouling, polishing, varnishing etc, basic boat prepping for the new season and right now is exactly the time they're going "oooh, nice weather is nearly here but the boat's still a tip; how much will the yard sting me and will I have to wait until June/July/August to get launched?".

That's a very kind offer. Unfortunately, the Club Nautico are now very aware of the current situation and have gone into lockdown where this boat is concerned.. They're unlikely to assist in any way, but I do appreciate the thought... Many thanks YP

 

[yachtpilot]

Just following the maths, its a case of the “new owner” coughing up an extra £10,846 and all will be set right. (47x 64/52 minus 47)
They will be reluctant to do that but faced with total confiscation of the boat they will have little choice.
The legal fees though could swamp this but the “new owner” would also be aware his fees and may cooperate.

The net funds due to myself would be less than the figure quoted as I'm partly responsible for some major repair work, I'm not disputing that, however, there would still remain a considerable sum. It would be a pity to penalise the new owner, after all, he bought the boat in good faith through what should have been a legal process. It's possible that He/She may be willing to come to an arrangement but I would suspect, only if being assured that the money was retrievable from my ex-partner who misrepresented herself as sole owner.

 

[petem]

to

Just following the maths, its a case of the “new owner” coughing up an extra £10,846 and all will be set right. (47x 64/52 minus 47)
They will be reluctant to do that but faced with total confiscation of the boat they will have little choice.
The legal fees though could swamp this but the “new owner” would also be aware his fees and may cooperate.

That is what I was alluding to in my post.

The new 'owner' doesn't currently have good title to the boat so might be willing to pay £10k to resolve this (particularly as they seem to have got the boat for a good price). It would then be down to them to pursue the OP's partner for the money.

Alternatively, given the potential bad press, the Auction House might be willing to compensate the OP due to them not having checked that the seller was entitled to sell the boat.

 

[yachtpilot]

I'm surprised that as yet, the new owner hasn't attempted to register the yacht, but this is where I came in and decided to help people become aware of how fragile a registration process can be. It's possible that registering the vessel outside of the UK may be possible using nothing but the Bill of Sale showing just my ex-partner's name.

 

[petem]

I'm surprised that as yet, the new owner hasn't attempted to register the yacht, but this is where I came in and decided to help people become aware of how fragile a registration process can be. It's possible that registering the vessel outside of the UK may be possible using nothing but the Bill of Sale showing just my ex-partner's name.

How do you know the new owner hasn't re-registered the boat? All they'd need to do is change the name and send a copy of the BoS.

As for the general gist of your thread, you should never rely on the SSR for proof of ownership (loans aren't recorded against it either). Part 1 is far more robust but even that isn't perfect.

 

[DavidJ]

You are clearly a really nice bloke with your sympathies towards the “new owner” but the way out of the muddle is for him to pay you whatever you can both reasonably negotiate, hopefully together in a friendly way.
Re registration
I don’t think a UK national can register a boat in Spain. You would alert their matriculation (wealth) tax for one
Also Spain has only a proper boat registration system like our part 1 (no SSR) so any challenges to title could be entered there (I assume like UK land registry) making the boat unsaleable

 

[yachtpilot]

How do you know the new owner hasn't re-registered the boat? All they'd need to do is change the name and send a copy of the BoS.

As for the general gist of your thread, you should never rely on the SSR for proof of ownership (loans aren't recorded against it either). Part 1 is far more robust but even that isn't perfect.

Exactly, that was the point of starting the thread, to raise awareness of the limited protection offered by Pt3 SSR registration. To be fair, the registration process does request sight of a Bill of Sale from the previous owner(s), it appears that on this occasion an administrative error allowed them to issue a Cert of Reg in only one of the names listed on the BoS, in any event, the Cert of Reg is no more than the equivalent of a V5 vehicle registration, it does not guarantee proof of ownership. The previous BofS should be checked. Part 1 of the Registry of Ships is more complex, more expensive but also more stringent.
I would like people out there to take nothing for granted when it comes to ownership. From where I sit, it's entirely possible for someone to steal a boat, sail it to some distant country and register it under another name with impunity. Be aware.

 

[Whitelighter]

It offers no protection.
min the uk you are not required to have any registration. SSR was conceived as a registration of convenience to allow uk boats to travel abroad and comply with foreign rules on having a reg cert.

It was never designed to, or promised to, offer anything other than a certificate to satisfy foreign authorities

 

[yachtpilot]

You are clearly a really nice bloke with your sympathies towards the “new owner” but the way out of the muddle is for him to pay you whatever you can both reasonably negotiate, hopefully together in a friendly way.
Re registration
I don’t think a UK national can register a boat in Spain. You would alert their matriculation (wealth) tax for one
Also Spain has only a proper boat registration system like our part 1 (no SSR) so any challenges to title could be entered there (I assume like UK land registry) making the boat unsaleable

Absolutely agree, but more distant, non-European countries may not be so exacting.

It offers no protection.
min the uk you are not required to have any registration. SSR was conceived as a registration of convenience to allow uk boats to travel abroad and comply with foreign rules on having a reg cert.

It was never designed to, or promised to, offer anything other than a certificate to satisfy foreign authorities

Thank you.. that states things very clearly, exactly what I was trying to achieve when posting this thread. Hopefully, that will cause others to consider how best to protect themselves.

 

[petem]

It would be a pity to penalise the new owner, after all, he bought the boat in good faith through what should have been a legal process. It's possible that He/She may be willing to come to an arrangement but I would suspect, only if being assured that the money was retrievable from my ex-partner who misrepresented herself as sole owner.

Of course it's a pity but UK law favours the original owner (i.e. you) and not the purchaser. Somebody will lose out here and I don't think you should be resigned to the fact that it's you.

 

[yachtpilot]

Well, I have the police involved based on 'False Representation', covered under the Fraud Act 2006. But, as they pointed out, it's taking 2 yrs to bring rape cases to court. I'm investigating other avenues. Getting a criminal conviction would make a civil case more likely to succeed, it's possible that the criminal court may simply award damages and costs.

 

[Tranona]

The one thing we may have learned is that Part 3 of the SSR registration, although very much more simple to apply for, may not protect us to the degree we assumed.

Not sure why you keep saying this as Part 3 is not and never was a register of title so the fact that she registered it in her sole name is irrelevant. Your claim to title rests on your Bill of Sale and as others have said on the evidence so far you can exercise your claim for 12/64 of the proceeds based on that. You also have a claim against the other owner for theft and against the auction house for making a sale knowing that there was your claim to title outstanding.

This is all based on what you have said and does not take into account any other facts known to the other owner and the auction house. Not a lot of point in continuing to post about it unless there is new information. You need to take qualified legal advice as to how strong you 3 claims are and how best to pursue them. Probably the best you can hope is to get your share of the actual sale proceeds rather than what you think your share was worth, that is just under £9k.

 

[Bouba]

I recently suffered a considerable loss following the actions of the joint owner of our Rampart 48 motor yacht. Representing herself as sole owner when registering the MY with the SSR without my knowledge, she had a registration certificate issued in only her name. Recently, without my knowledge, the MY was listed on an auction site and sold for a sum well below the true value of the vessel. To date, I've not received any funds and the monies due to me resulting from the sale are very significantly less than would have been the case had the vessel been marketed responsibly. I have no knowledge of the current whereabouts of the person responsible. We might believe that this would be impossible but it maybe it's worth checking that, as a joint owner, your boat is still where you left it :>)

I feel that you have, similarly, misrepresented the facts to us?. Originally you had my immediate sympathy and concern, by omitting (initially) that the culprit is your ex, we were led to believe that the person was a criminal.
In fact, I would guess that your ex sees this as some kind of payback....and not only are we supposed to unravel the legalities of the boat sale but also, now, your relationship and divorce.

 

[yachtpilot]

Not sure why you keep saying this as Part 3 is not and never was a register of title so the fact that she registered it in her sole name is irrelevant. Your claim to title rests on your Bill of Sale and as others have said on the evidence so far you can exercise your claim for 12/64 of the proceeds based on that. You also have a claim against the other owner for theft and against the auction house for making a sale knowing that there was your claim to title outstanding.

This is all based on what you have said and does not take into account any other facts known to the other owner and the auction house. Not a lot of point in continuing to post about it unless there is new information. You need to take qualified legal advice as to how strong you 3 claims are and how best to pursue them. Probably the best you can hope is to get your share of the actual sale proceeds rather than what you think your share was worth, that is just under £9k.

I'm sorry to reiterate that fact, it's simply that I wish to make it clear. Hopefully, now it will have come to the attention of some that were unaware of the fact, obviously the purchaser of the vessel was not aware that he/she needed to have sight of the Bill of Sale. I am attempting to get legal advice, at a cost that I can afford, maybe through the RYA.

 

[yachtpilot]

I feel that you have, similarly, misrepresented the facts to us?. Originally you had my immediate sympathy and concern, by omitting (initially) that the culprit is your ex, we were led to believe that the person was a criminal.
In fact, I would guess that your ex sees this as some kind of payback....and not only are we supposed to unravel the legalities of the boat sale but also, now, your relationship and divorce.

Actually, I made it clear almost immediately if you care to view the first few posts on the thread, I made it clear for the reasons you now state. There's nothing underhand about the situation. We parted, still on amicable terms (I thought), as joint owners of the vessel and had both accepted that it would be sold, no problem with that. That it should be sold on a Classic Car website auction in early February with an exceptionally low reserve was not agreed to, I had no knowledge that the auction was underway until almost at the end, I discovered it only by pure chance. She went ahead without my knowledge or consent. In order to accomplish this she had to misrepresent herself as the sole owner which comes under the Fraud Act of 2006, (False Representation), she had to manage this deceit twice, once in applying for a reg cert. listing herself as sole owner, acquiring a reg cert. That should not have been issued and was a result of an administrative error on behalf of the SSR. The second time, representing herself to the auction house as sole owner. That's what makes it a criminal act.
The vessel should have been marketed responsibly via appropriate websites between the end of Feb and the end of May to ensure maximum exposure, not a Classic Car website for one week early in February.
The new owner was obviously not aware that he should ask for the previous Bill of Sale, not dependent on the Cert. of Reg. in the belief that it was proof of ownership. I started the thread simply to raise awareness that the Cert of Reg. for Pt 3 of the SSR in no way guarantees ownership. Simply that. I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

 

[westernman]

Well, I have the police involved based on 'False Representation', covered under the Fraud Act 2006. But, as they pointed out, it's taking 2 yrs to bring rape cases to court. I'm investigating other avenues. Getting a criminal conviction would make a civil case more likely to succeed, it's possible that the criminal court may simply award damages and costs.

The bar for proof for a civil case is not so high as required for a criminal conviction.

 

[yachtpilot]

The bar for proof for a civil case is not so high as required for a criminal conviction.

Well, to a layman it's very straightforward, hopefully, you're correct. Strangely though, once talking with a lawyer the whole thing becomes a bag of worms :>) It's been suggested that, and I'm hoping, the RYA lawyers may be able to assist. The loss has pretty much wiped out my capital, being quoted £250 ph for a solicitor is pretty scary with no guarantee of the outcome., Thnx for the thought.

 

[Portofino]

Outline the conversations you had with your ex ( wife ?) up to the sale ?
I mean did you drag your feet kinda forcing her to make ways to get out .

Outline why she put in a far greater % leaving you with 12/64 th .Normally spouses are written up as equal shares .
Why the difference ?
Just seems odd an “ ex “ and all that that entails would bank roll a doer upper old boat …..what was her motivation last year ?

 

[petem]

The bar for proof for a civil case is not so high as required for a criminal conviction.

Perhaps, but the police will see this as a £10k domestic dispute and deal with it accordingly (i.e. do nothing).