How secure is your ownership?

[Poecheng]

With the police, don't bother reporting it as a fraud - they will direct you to Action Fraud which is a virtual dustbin to permit the police to avoid dealing with fraud.

It is 'theft' (and stick to that) because, on the facts as stated, she has stolen (by dishonestly treating it as her own and selling it) property belonging to another (it belongs to you by virtue of section 5, THeft Act 1968).
The fact it also belongs to her is irrelevant

 

[yachtpilot]

OK, well things will depend on where the sale took place to determine which law applies. If seller in England, buyer in England, money shifting within England using an English website or the English version of it and the boat just happens to be in Spain, then very likely to be English law applying.
If seller was in Spain at the time (and we know the boat was) then it is not quite so clear which law applies and other circumstances will be relevant. The location of the boat seems to preclude self-help but, even if English law applied to the contract, the remedy of self help doesn't simply apply in Spain !!

The buyer, to the best of my knowledge, is British, only the boat happens to be in Spain. One reason for the low sale price was that she decided to advertise it on a Classic Car Website ! At a low reserve. Anyway, as I said, the importance of this posting was to raise awareness of possible pitfalls involving joint ownership, having said that, I'm extremely grateful to all for the advice.

 

[LittleSister]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

 

[yachtpilot]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

Yes.. Thnx for that.. going to be a difficult one to bounce back from :>)

 

[yachtpilot]

With the police, don't bother reporting it as a fraud - they will direct you to Action Fraud which is a virtual dustbin to permit the police to avoid dealing with fraud.

It is 'theft' (and stick to that) because, on the facts as stated, she has stolen (by dishonestly treating it as her own and selling it) property belonging to another (it belongs to you by virtue of section 5, THeft Act 1968).
The fact it also belongs to her is irrelevant

I'll keep that in mind.. Much appreciated.. YP

 

[bluetooth]

Sorry to hear of this terrible situation. Have you posted on other groups especially those pertinent to the make /model ? Fingers crossed for you.

 

[penfold]

I'm retired on a very limited pension, all of my captital was tied up in that boat. I have spoken with a lawyer, to a layman, it all appears very clear cut.. until one speaks with a lawyer. At £250 per hour with no guarantee of the outcome, it's just too risky. The police are now involved. If I can get a conviction under Part 3 of the Fraud Act 2004, 'False Representation', which is realtively straightforward, it will almost guarantee success in a civil court, and may even result in being awarded damages in the magistrate's court. But some way in the future, my hobby was renovating small boats/yachts, bringing them back to life, keeping me fit, a project, now I'll just sit and vegetate.. that's a real bummer.

If you have skills in this area I doubt you'd have any difficulty getting work right now, most of the sector has more work than they know what to do with and it will beat sitting around in terms of your mental health.

 

[Bigplumbs]

A very sad situation and sorry to hear of your loss. Many thanks for posting this to try and help others avoid a similar situation. I hope the messages you have received here at least cheer you up a little

 

[petem]

This sounds like a sorry story.

I appreciate your financial situation but I wouldn't be ready to throw the towel in just yet. A couple of thoughts occur to me...

1) It doesn't seem right or proper that the auction house released the funds to your partner after you had advised them that she doesn't own the boat outright.
2) At the very least, the auction house should tell you who the purchaser was. I don't believe the purchaser has good title to the boat and may be unable to sell it on. Perhaps they might be willing to purchase your share.

I would strongly recommend you contact Ward & McKenzie (Superyacht Consultancy | Ward & McKenzie (Yacht Consultants) Limited (ward-mckenzie.co.uk)) and ask to speak to (Sir) Ian Collett. He has helped a few forumites and will give you the best advice you can get. It may turn out that a few letters can resolve this (don't worry, for things like this his charges are very modest).

I'm afraid I wouldn't have much faith in the police sorting this out.

 

[Andy Bav]

What an awful situation. Have you checked your house insurance for legal protection? I have an ex colleague that used it to hire a very expensive lawyer in an employment case, and won.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but based on my limited knowledge you and your ex should have each owned 32/64ths of the vessel, but it seems as though the paperwork <may> indicate that she owned 64/64ths... that maybe a hurdle in the beginning of any case, but as a layman, I wonder if you may then have to prove that a) you paid for half (or more) and b) that payment didn’t constitute a “gift” when the relationship was in a better place...

As I say I am no expert, but if my assumptions above re ownership are correct, the paperwork may be your worst enemy, as her lawyer may be able to dispute your claim to any interest in it.

I certainly feel for your situation, which is awful, but it appears an expensive legal route may be your only answer... and perhaps if not covered on house insurance negotiate a no win no fee engagement

Very best of luck to you -and to reiterate, these are my thoughts, not legal advice,

 

[yachtpilot]

If you have skills in this area I doubt you'd have any difficulty getting work right now, most of the sector has more work than they know what to do with and it will beat sitting around in terms of your mental health.

Well. I wouldn't wish to give the impression that I'm a qualified boat-builder. Over the years I've bought small yachts, sailing/motor-boats and one narrow-boat, all in poor shape and then spent a lot of time, and even more money, refitting them. The more difficult tasks I would leave to a professional. There's huge satisfaction (and not a little sadness) in seeing the boat disappearing off with the new owner. On almost every project I've lost money, generally because I can't allow myself to do any of the work without it being done in the best way possible.. wonderful though, knowing that the boats have very many more years ahead of them rather than rotting away at the back of some boatyard. Thanks for the thoughts.. :>)

 

[yachtpilot]

This sounds like a sorry story.

I appreciate your financial situation but I wouldn't be ready to throw the towel in just yet. A couple of thoughts occur to me...

1) It doesn't seem right or proper that the auction house released the funds to your partner after you had advised them that she doesn't own the boat outright.
2) At the very least, the auction house should tell you who the purchaser was. I don't believe the purchaser has good title to the boat and may be unable to sell it on. Perhaps they might be willing to purchase your share.

I would strongly recommend you contact Ward & McKenzie (Superyacht Consultancy | Ward & McKenzie (Yacht Consultants) Limited (ward-mckenzie.co.uk)) and ask to speak to (Sir) Ian Collett. He has helped a few forumites and will give you the best advice you can get. It may turn out that a few letters can resolve this (don't worry, for things like this his charges are very modest).

I'm afraid I wouldn't have much faith in the police sorting this out.

Excellent thought, and advice. Many thanks for that, YP

 

[yachtpilot]

What an awful situation. Have you checked your house insurance for legal protection? I have an ex colleague that used it to hire a very expensive lawyer in an employment case, and won.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but based on my limited knowledge you and your ex should have each owned 32/64ths of the vessel, but it seems as though the paperwork <may> indicate that she owned 64/64ths... that maybe a hurdle in the beginning of any case, but as a layman, I wonder if you may then have to prove that a) you paid for half (or more) and b) that payment didn’t constitute a “gift” when the relationship was in a better place...

As I say I am no expert, but if my assumptions above re ownership are correct, the paperwork may be your worst enemy, as her lawyer may be able to dispute your claim to any interest in it.

I certainly feel for your situation, which is awful, but it appears an expensive legal route may be your only answer... and perhaps if not covered on house insurance negotiate a no win no fee engagement

Very best of luck to you -and to reiterate, these are my thoughts, not legal advice,

Many Thanks for the response, the share division was based on the traditional 64ths system, hers being 52 to my 12. The boat sale value had it been marketed in a sensible way should have sold for a minimum of £65k based on current values, (a comparable Rampart 48 of the same era is on the market asking £99.5k. Apx 25k Eur. had been spent on hull and mechanical work following purchase. She let it go for £47k, a considerable loss, no problem for her, she's more than comfortably off by any standards.
I will certainly follow up the suggestion of contacting the auction house. I've been getting some very good advice and suggestions from a number of responders here and I do very much appreciate the thoughts.. Very many thanks to all.. I hope by way of something positive coming out of this that someone else out there avoids finding themselves in a similar situation. The one thing we may have learned is that Part 3 of the SSR registration, although very much more simple to apply for, may not protect us to the degree we assumed.

 

[PlanB]

You might be able to get some free legal advice here
Find a legal advice clinic near you | LawWorks

 

[yachtpilot]

You might be able to get some free legal advice here
Find a legal advice clinic near you | LawWorks

Many thanks for that.. will follow the link.. Best :>) YP

 

[KevinV]

I wonder if you could argue that what she sold is only her share, as she has no rights over your share? That might just get the new owner of her share on your side - he/she has been sold 52/64th of a boat. On that argument the actual sale value of 64/64th would be closer to your estimate.

 

[yachtpilot]

I wonder if you could argue that what she sold is only her share, as she has no rights over your share? That might just get the new owner of her share on your side - he/she has been sold 52/64th of a boat. On that argument, the actual sale value of 64/64th would be closer to your estimate.

Thanks, yes, unfortunately, I've no idea who the new owner is. The moment a suggestion of legal proceedings creeps into the firmament everyone disappears into the woodwork.

 

[Andy Bav]

Does the boat have AIS ?

If its still in Cambrills, would the Club Nautico deliver / leave a letter on board from you explaining the situation ?

Also, a few on this forum are based in Sant Carles, 30 or so miles down the coast from Cambrills. I am going out in late April.

 

[penfold]

Well. I wouldn't wish to give the impression that I'm a qualified boat-builder. Over the years I've bought small yachts, sailing/motor-boats and one narrow-boat, all in poor shape and then spent a lot of time, and even more money, refitting them. The more difficult tasks I would leave to a professional. There's huge satisfaction (and not a little sadness) in seeing the boat disappearing off with the new owner. On almost every project I've lost money, generally because I can't allow myself to do any of the work without it being done in the best way possible.. wonderful though, knowing that the boats have very many more years ahead of them rather than rotting away at the back of some boatyard. Thanks for the thoughts.. :>)

Don't underestimate the amount of work there is out there doing even the semi-skilled stuff; some owners don't want or don't have the time to do antifouling, polishing, varnishing etc, basic boat prepping for the new season and right now is exactly the time they're going "oooh, nice weather is nearly here but the boat's still a tip; how much will the yard sting me and will I have to wait until June/July/August to get launched?".

 

[Whitelighter]

A point on value: old boats are very hard to predict. Just because people are asking £99k doesn’t really mean much. My boat is on at 99k with all the others being listed at £129-150k. So far not a sniff.

that said, £65k through a broker is going to incur 8%+vat fees, plus prep costs etc. without a below asking price offer you are going to be left with £57k I’d reckon

so your loss currently (assuming you get your 12/64 value) is about £1800.

the traditional 64th relates to part 1 reg, which does record ownership and is a must for anyone co-owning a boat. As with all things do it properly and you don’t have an issue.