How safe are the client a/c's of brokers/dealers?

Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

If I were EBY I'd never do that. I dont want to own a %age of a boat. And if i were Kasta I'd never do it cos i dont want to own say 30% of a boat and find that a liquidator owns the other 70% if EBY went tits-up (which is what this thread is concerned with)

Much more practical route is to take ownership of boat but grant a lien to EBY on the whole boat until the final instalment is paid
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif [ QUOTE ]
Much more practical route is to take ownership of boat but grant a lien to EBY on the whole boat until the final instalment is paid

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Certainly if they are willing to grant title to you without paying for the boat, hey thats a good thing!

Buying shares in a boat is a pretty common practice... swmbo and I have joint ownership and she actually has one more share than I have, there is a well troden road for doing this and If I recall correclty it is even reflected in the part one registration...

I cant see how this is any different from taking title to a part completed hull with stage payments, but will be something that is much easier to liquidate if their should be a problem..


Risk wise I cant see how this is more risky for either party than either of your suggestions, in fact it spreads the risk equally amongst both parties, which is a good thing IMHO.

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Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

I thought EBY financed their stock through Lombard (may not be Lombard) which - if correct - would make taking ownership prior to full payment a bit more difficult, although not impossible.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Owning shares with SWMBO is completely different from owning shares between Kaste and a liquidator.

I guess there are lots of opinions on this! FWIW I dont think part shares spreads risk equally, rahter it creates new risks for both sides. If Kaste doesn't pay the final bill, EBY end up owning a shared boat with a penniless Kaste. If EBY go tits-up, Kaste has a boat share with a liquidator. They are entirely new risks created by the sharing thing.

Incidentally, how does swmbo own 1 share more if there are 64 to begin with? :-)
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

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how does swmbo own 1 share more if there are 64 to begin with? :-)

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Thats a damn good question..... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

After all she certainly didnt shell out any cash!

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They are entirely new risks created by the sharing thing.

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I think I see were your coming from, if things go tits up, both parties know exactly were they stand.... I can see that by buying shares,the deal is more complex.. and therefore the risk of problems actually increase...

See, I learn something everyday here!
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Yep that would complicate. I dunno how EBY finance things. They might do this deal out of working capital since it is only 3 months, I dunno. Otherwise kaste needs to involve Lombard and get an undertaking from Lom to release their mortgage once the Lombard loan is paid off, and arrange to pay Lombard directly in Jan09. EBY can still keep a lien and possession for any residual balance owed to them. Can be done, not difficult
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

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..... in fact it spreads the risk equally amongst both parties, which is a good thing IMHO.

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i thought the whole point of the op`s post was to enable him to be risk free, not to share the risk /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

I tried the share thing with Princess.
They simply weren't interested.

The solution seems to be to get a bank to guarantee the stage payments - from the boat builder's bank. Then you have to make sure that your money actually gets to the boatbuilder and that the dealer now has no claim over the stage payments. Then if the builder went bust the bank pays you your money back and the dealer has no claim. There seem to be all kinds of limitations as well - one being that you HAVE to know when the builder actually goes bust and you then have inform the bank that you are invoking the guarantee - all within 14 days.

There is another much bigger problem - as soon as the boat is delivered to the dealer, the boat builder then has no further liability as the boat had then passed ownership to the dealer. It is at this point that IMO you should buy it and ASAP and actually own it yourself - sorting out warranty and delivery issues separatly. This is where the trust comes in - you have to trust the dealer to honour his commitment. If he went bust at this stage, you would at least own the boat even if it hadnt been properly delivered or warranteed.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Jfm, Yes I appreciate the mortgage repayments would still be down to the punter - it was really a question about ownership during build. I see now in the case in question this really is not the same issue as with stage payments.

The punter does not want to repay a loan on something he does not own - this should not happen say with a house mortgage as ownership is established by the lender from outset - I guess your comment ''the bank will go to great lengths to get the title paperwork right, to protect its interests, but the spin off is that it protects your interests too.'' covers it as I agree the bank will be able to prove its % ownership and pass same over to punter case need.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

I am interested in your statement that it will be sold to you as a "January 2009" boat. I thought the date of the boat was its build date within the HIN. If the boat is already built it is a 2008 boat and describing it as a 2009 could be mis-representation.

You could describe it as a 2008 build, first launched in January 2009.

From what you are saying you got a good price, which perhaps reflects the fact that it is an unused 2008 boat, which might have a lower market value than a new build 2009 boat.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

I believe that "boat years" run from September each year? and am informed that our proposed purchase is a 2009 craft (it's on the paperwork as such) due for delivery to EBY mid-Oct 08. We have deferred to take it until Jan 09 as we are unlikely to have funds to complete until then. Our completion/ registration date therefore is late jan 2009.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Who told you that crock of shite? Your boat will be "built 2008, commissioned 2009". It may be a 2009 model, but that's just the manufacturers marketing nonsense, they like to get the next years model out early, so a potential buyer thinks they're getting a more up to date boat. It's the same as IPC putting their mags out 2 months early, so people will buy an out of date mag thinking it's still current.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Yes, I think you are the subject of "spin" here. "Model years" are irrelevant. The date is the date of the HIN which will be 2008 when it was built. It may be to the same spec as a boat thast will be built in January 2009, but that will have a HIN dated 2009.

All your documentation will be dated when the boat was built. The only things you will have dated 2009 is the final invoice, VAT payment and your registration on either Part 1 or SSR.

With the amount of money you are spending I assume you have engaged a surveyor to check the boat out, so it might be worth having him check this out as well.

My understanding comes from having bought a new boat in Germany. It was built in February and all the documentation, builders certificate, CE declaration etc is dated February, and I understand the HIN number has a code that identifies its build date.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

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I feel I should clarify the situation. The boat is built and being delivered to EBY later this month. They hadn't sold it until they put an attractive deal to me. They will get copies of my PX boat and I keep the originals until completion. The first payment is due when they get the boat, when it will be placed in storage until Mid Jan when my final funds are available and sold as a Jan 2009 boat. Moneywise its a real deal as far as I am concerned. I have no issues with EBY or Fairline and have in fact spoken to Derek Carter at SIBS when this deal was originally proposed to get Fairline out a warranty issue withy me on the T43. However the question still remains to find the least risky route for lodging of the funds until mid-Jan.

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Client Account. A posh name for petty cash tin /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif (a Solicitors Client Account is different, even if not perfect).

If the firm goes t#ts up that will either have been spent, promised or be part of the firm's assets. That's why they agreed /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif as even if not planning on spending it in the meantime they know if push comes to shove they could, even if "only" borrowing against it......

Your best option is.......to give it to me to look after /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I am quite happy to sign any bits of paper you want. Legally you will be all right, just in practice you may /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif not be. Always good to bear in mind practice as well as theory.

It seems you are after an easy (and cheap?) way of making sure your bases are covered. Unfortunately it doesn't usually work quite like that.......given the likely sums involved best off chatting to a Lawyer (yikes!) and probably using his Clients Account as an Escrow (with the appropriate agreements to keep everyone happy) or your bank for a Letter of Credit or suchlike (bit out practice on stuff like that /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif).......or simply buy shares in the boat as you pay money - in practice could be the simplest for all concerned and if things went bad would place you in a good position to deal with an Administrator or Liquidator.

At least you are talking about a finished boat. Even in the good times always non-plussed me why folk would provide a boat yard with free working capital in exchange for simply a promise. But, that's a different thread.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Get the funds held in escrow with a solicitor. Anything else is a gamble.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

David,
I wasn't after an easy or necessarily cheap way of dealing with this matter just the safest way. And , thanks to all respondents it appears that an independant party (solicitor) holding funds as an escrow is the probable route for me to take asuming EBY agree. If they don't then its a decision for me or them, whether to continue.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

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David,
I wasn't after an easy or necessarily cheap way of dealing with this matter just the safest way

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Ooops - just re-read my post, it does read as a bit off /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Wasn't my intention /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif (I tend to be a bit blunter /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Better safe than sorry........
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Model years aren't irrelevant. The HIN states the year the hull was physically built AND, separately, the model year. So in this case the HIN will say the boat is a 2009 model year boat, even if built in 2008, and that ought to be relevant to the future resale price
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

Thanks JFM, that was my understanding. Will try to get the HIN no. this w/e.
 
Re: How safe are the client a/c\'s of brokers/dealers?

ok. You get this info from the last 4 digits of the HIN. Eg if the last 4 digits are H809 it is an August 2008 hull mould (H is the 8th letter of alphabet and the 8 signifies 2008) and 2009 model year (signified by the "09").
 
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