How predictable is fog in The Channel?

[Pancake]

We did our first channel crossing in May, with a return trip overnight from Cherbourg. Despite no mention in the forecast in Cherbourg, four hours out we hit pretty dense fog, which was with us for a few hours. Pretty scary without radar. Thankfully we got back safely, although we wondered whether what we'd attempted was foolish.

As nearly all of my sailing is in and around the Solent, where I can easily choose not to sail if it's foggy, I'm not very enthusiastic about paying lots for radar, which I might only need on one or two longer trips a year, and only then if it's foggy. Is this an irresponsible attitude, or are there sensible ways you can cross the Channel without radar? Maybe I didn't look in the right place for a forecast, or maybe going at night was a bad plan - when presumably fog is more common.

Once we were in the foggy situation, should we have called the coastguard? If so, what help could he have provided? Or should we periodically announce our position and course on VHF?

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[homa]

Hi Pancake,

Welcome to the forum.

As a leisure sailor and "professional" sailor (I drive a cross Channel ferry for a living), yes fog is predictable do a degree, but forcasters can & do get it wrong.

Apart from checking the forecast and all the usual route planning etc.
I would strongly recommend you buy the best radar reflector you can afford.
There are lots of posts on the subject here. All I would say is that a properly sited radar reflector definitely does work. If we can see you on radar we can keep out of your way it's as simple as that.

I have also been caught out in fog (vis less than 50yds) whilst in a yacht crossing the Channel and it was quite scary, luckily we were in a 32' steel yacht. We could hear ships passing, I even gave my DR position over the VHF and asked a passing ship if he could see us on radar, he came back quite quickly and said that he'd had us on radar at 6 miles which reassured us no-end.

Happy sailing,
homa


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[Sunnyseeker]

I'd be interested to know Homers opinion on this approach friends have used once caught out un expectadly, which does happen as the forceast is not always spot on.
They've broadcast their position by VHF every 20 30 mins. They had a response from several commercial vessels, just saying yep got you on radar. Which did make them feel a little more comfortable. Maybe it gives the guy on the bridge something to do?
We always and have done, consider turing back if the other coast or shpping area has less vis than we would like, which can be difficult...after a 24 hour sail to end up back where you started.
And yes our big reflector at the mast head was seen even in pretty rough weather a long way off so they do work. I wouldn't go without one as high as I can fit it.
Fog is a bit un-predictable, get a radar reflector and be prepared to turn around.
You can alwasy get a lift back with Homa?

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[jonjo]

Homa,

What radar bands does your commercial vessel use? I ask because I am thinking of buying one of these active radar responders.

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[Evadne]

I would agree, and make sure you have the reflector hoisted whenever you're offshore, not just at night or in fog. A lot of ships, especially smaller MVs and fishing boats, rely totally on radar at all times for their collision avoidance, only looking out of the window as a last resort. A yacht with no reflector can be invisible at less than 2 miles range.

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[homa]

Hi Jonjo,

We have both 3 & 10cm radars.

Reference what a yacht should carry, It's baically common sense...
Carry a good radar reflector, make sure your nav lights are working and visible.
Keep a good look out. Believe it or not, the yacht is more likely to see the ship before the ship sees the yacht (in good visibility).

Ulimately if you are not sure if the ship has seen you... get out of its way ! particularly in narrow channels. You can always try calling the ship on the VHF to ask if he's seen you and you should get a response, though I'd only use this as a last resort (best to give the ships name and your own) as you can easily end up with mistaken identity.

Homa



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[AndrewB]

Using Securité

At least we usually only get fog in the channel in calm weather. Ships' radars these days are powerful enough to detect a floating beer can in these conditions, let alone a yacht with a large inboard engine and a radar reflector, so they certainly know you are there - there is no need to be paranoid about having the most expensive active transponder going. Under IRCPS rule 19 in fog even in a TSS they have a duty to get out of your way, as much as you must keep out of theirs. But the chief problem, it seems to me, is that it may not occur to them that you are not similarly equipped, so they may well still expect you to give way according to the normal rules, when of course you can't.

What should happen is that you both recognise the possibility of collision on your radars and both turn to starboard. But because you don't, only the ship turns. In the first "near" traffic lane that means they will pass behind you, fairly innocuously as long as you hold a steady course at slow speed. In the second "far" lane when only they turn to starboard, the result is the ship suddenly appears thundering out of the fog dead ahead maybe no more than ¼ mile off, a terrifying sight if ever there was one. But possibly not quite as dangerous as it seems.

I have heard yachts caught in fog in the TSS put out securité messages on ch16. If you don't have a radar and so cannot behave as ships might expect you to do, then I don't know if this is recommended but it seems to me perfectly reasonable.

 

[sabresailor]

Re: Using Securité

following this reply - what channel would folks recommend to put out a call to other ships stating position?

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[homa]

Re: Radar echo

Hi Sabresailor,

I'd put out a call on VHF Ch 16, we use it for ship-ship calls.

Ref "radars these days can pick up a beer can".
This may be so on a flat calm and a well tuned radar, but in practice and my experience (25yrs at sea) picking up yachts on radar is poor most of the time.

OK in a completely flat calm most radars will have no trouble picking up any solid target (provided its tuned in properly).
But I am currently working on a brand new ferry with height of eye at 130 ft, radar scanner at 155ft creating anything up to 6 miles of sea clutter (where weak targets can be lost amongst returns from the waves). Therefore if you can improve your radar image then I'd strongly recommend it.

Homa

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[sabresailor]

Re: Radar echo

much appreciated.

mike

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[Pancake]

Re: Using Securité

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies.

A final detail: if putting out a Securité, should this be on low or high power TX (I think my set has options of 1W or 25W, with an aerial at maybe 15m above waterline). If you transmitted every 20mins, and assume a maximum approach speed of say 24kts, I want to reach anyone within 8nm. I don't have a feeling for the range I get on either power.

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[kds]

Re: Radar echo

Homa,
I do appreciate your professional input, speaking as one likely to be on the receiving end ! But, from your last post;
Does this mean that the latest radars on high masts of commercial vessals pick up more sea clutter than the older and lower ones did ? Hence less chance of seeing small vessals ?
If so. is this progress ?
Ken

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[homa]

Re: Radar echo

Hi Ken,
Sorry for the late reply. I generally only log in when I'm at work....As I'm far too busy being a Dad when I'm at home.
The answer to your post is yes. But it is due to the simple fact that the higher the scanner the more sea clutter you get. Nothing to do with how modern the radar is. Most radars have good anti-clutter software but there is always the chance that a poor radar target such as a yacht with little or no radar reflector will not be detected very well and the software will assume it is a wave. Hence my original post to advise anyone thinking of going out to sea to get a decent radar reflector.
I agree with other posts that whenever you go to sea where there might be shipping to carry you radar reflector.
If the scanner is sited high you genarally want good range. So a few miles of sea clutter is not something we worry about particularly, except in poor visibility. And I mean rain or snow. Because in fog the wind is generally light so slight sea and less clutter.
Personally I hate heavy rain as radar cannot see through it.
Going back to sea clutter. on one ferry I was on we had a scanner sited on the focsle. It was not for berthing the ship as most people assumed but gave us good short range detection of small targets and very little sea clutter.
Rgds,
homa

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[JamesS]

A very interesting thread - thanks.

A couple of points from personal observation.

We have recently installed radar and use it during clear conditions just to get familiar with the set. What is suprising is the number of vessels without reflectors that just don't show on the screen.

This may be down to the (mistaken) belief that sails, hulls and masts offer their own reflection - not true!

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