How much wind before you reef?

The 20:20 rule is from the designer Chuck Paine and means a boat can carry all working sail in 20 knots apparant with no more than 20 degrees of heel. I would define working sail as full main and 100% jib, usually the No2 jib.
This doesn't mean, of course, that the boat can't carry bigger headsails for lighter conditions. It seems logical to use full working sail as the point from which you start to reef. The answer to the OP's question is meaningless unless you define the starting point for reefing.
 
Salty John said:
The 20:20 rule is from the designer Chuck Paine and means a boat can carry all working sail in 20 knots apparant with no more than 20 degrees of heel. I would define working sail as full main and 100% jib, usually the No2 jib.
This doesn't mean, of course, that the boat can't carry bigger headsails for lighter conditions. It seems logical to use full working sail as the point from which you start to reef. The answer to the OP's question is meaningless unless you define the starting point for reefing.
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Fair point. But for modern cruising boats I would argue that full working sail is not a number 2, as very few carry anything other than a roller furling genoa, so to discuss reefing points I would suggest that "from the standard 'as sold' sailplan" would be the best starting point.

I would also argue that apparent wind strengths are pretty meaningless too, as they are entirely dependant on the speed of the boat. 20kts apparent comes up a lot lower down the wind scale in a 40 footer capable of 7+ knots to windward than it does in a sub 30 footer struggling to make 4.
 
The use of the term "reefing" has become very vague as a result of furling headsails. With the main it's still logical, you start from 100% and you take in slabs or furl it into the mast or around the boom, until it is less than 100%.
With headsails you can start with something considerably more than 100% of the triangle, so reefing becomes entirely subjective. When you reef a headsail you make it smaller - but smaller than what? Consider this: A boat is sailing with a full main and a 170% genoa furled down to 150%. An identical boat is sailing with a full main and a 150% genoa not furled. Is the first boat reefed down and the second not?

Apparant wind is the wind you sail in and it's the wind to which you adapt your sail area, in my opinion.
 
Salty John said:
The 20:20 rule is from the designer Chuck Paine and means a boat can carry all working sail in 20 knots apparant with no more than 20 degrees of heel. I would define working sail as full main and 100% jib, usually the No2 jib.
This doesn't mean, of course, that the boat can't carry bigger headsails for lighter conditions. It seems logical to use full working sail as the point from which you start to reef. The answer to the OP's question is meaningless unless you define the starting point for reefing.
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We used to do this when we had lighter boats (Ben 1st) Now we tend to reef when the rudder angle starts getting any greater than 10 degrees,

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flaming said:
Fair point. But for modern cruising boats I would argue that full working sail is not a number 2, as very few carry anything other than a roller furling genoa, so to discuss reefing points I would suggest that "from the standard 'as sold' sailplan" would be the best starting point.
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Quite agree

I would also argue that apparent wind strengths are pretty meaningless too, as they are entirely dependant on the speed of the boat. 20kts apparent comes up a lot lower down the wind scale in a 40 footer capable of 7+ knots to windward than it does in a sub 30 footer struggling to make 4.
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Yes, that was still hard to believe even after 9 years of sailing our Sun Legende 41. We had the regular set of instruments over the hatch (speed, depth, windspeed/angle, closehauled/VMG) with a multi-repeater, Navdata repeater, pilot control in addition in a pedestal pod. We left the multi display reading Beaufort if we were on autopilot and not looking at digital wind angle P/S and it was initially quite a shock to see that our first reef was needed in F3 true upwind.

It still amazes me however how many see as a real virtue that their boat is so stiff it doesn't need reefing until F5/6. That means for sure the boat is dead in light winds and on goes the engine if you want any kind of passage speed. The 'band of pleasurable wind', being that between where there is both enough wind for reasonable progress and yet not too much to be unpleasant, is very small. The lower limit of 'sailable' wind is raised again by the rush towards in-mast sails in recent years as well. What a shame to miss out on those sunny light wind times when sailing can be both fun and pleasurable as opposed to cold wet and windy!
 
Jeanneau 43 classic rig, 150% genny

Close hauled

22 knts 6 rolls rolls in the jenny

27knts 1 reef in the main and full genny

35 knts 100% genny 2nd reef in the main 1 reef in the ensign and look for somewhere to go.

EDIT: APPARENT WIND
 
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Salty John said:
I would define working sail as full main and 100% jib, usually the No2 jib.
This doesn't mean, of course, that the boat can't carry bigger headsails for lighter conditions. It seems logical to use full working sail as the point from which you start to reef.
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flaming said:
Fair point. But for modern cruising boats I would argue that full working sail is not a number 2, as very few carry anything other than a roller furling genoa,
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In idle moments lately I've been fantasy-designing my ideal liveaboard world-cruising boat. I quite like the idea of "working sail" consisting of a moderate sized gaff main on a substantial mast of modest height, but with a running topmast and a fair-sized topsail. B-I-G sail area in light airs, but a working sailplan that's reasonable even as the wind starts to rise.

Pete
 
prv said:
In idle moments lately I've been fantasy-designing my ideal liveaboard world-cruising boat. I quite like the idea of "working sail" consisting of a moderate sized gaff main on a substantial mast of modest height, but with a running topmast and a fair-sized topsail. B-I-G sail area in light airs, but a working sailplan that's reasonable even as the wind starts to rise.

Pete
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We had a 150% genoa which I changed for a 135% yankee, this been high cut works well reefed with the stay sail which gives more options of reefing combinations and balance.
It's the first real season with the yankee and still playing with it, but up to now I am very pleased with it.

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Salty John said:
Apparant wind is the wind you sail in and it's the wind to which you adapt your sail area, in my opinion.
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Absolutely true. However useless for comparisons between different boats.

Regarding the other, yes I agree. A boat with a 170% genoa would of course need to "reef" earlier.

But the genoa is on its way out anyway. It's dead in racing circles, I can't think of a single boat designed in the last 5 years that sets a genoa. Eventually, as with all things, cruising will follow racing.
 
Where to start? There are so many variable factors. Our Roberts 34 is an early 70s heavy built cruiser, although we can often get a fair turn of speed, under full sail (or possibly with some reefing) tacking in F5 - F6 (she doesn't perform do well down wind). Mast height makes a huge difference, as do weight, length, keel etc.

It's strange, and I'm never quite sure as to what all the factors are, but in some conditions we can tack efficiently under full sail at up to about 22 knots or so - I think the big trick is trying to tweak our roller genoa sheets and the main to get the boat properly balanced. Once done I can leave to tack on her own, without using the autopilot or even a bungee on the tiller.

On other occasions we've needed to reduce sail at about 18 kts just to ease the pressure on the tiller. I think sea state has a lot to with how the boat handles with different wind strengths. I think the feel of how she handles and responds varies according to a range of circumstances, so, rather than being objective about the apparent factors, I think it's better to try to tune into the vessel and her rig - if that isn't too Moitessier/Cantona-ish. Hope that helps.
 
I've found this thread fasinating over the last couple of days. In my opinion, whatever method you use is dependant on the sea conditions as much as the wind strength. A few weeks ago we sailed my Westerly 33 across to Waterford from Dale pontoon in lovely seas. We kept full sails (main and 150% genoa) up all the time in 26-28 knot apparent wind. There was a lot of heeling, 20 degrees plus, and good speed despite lots of weather helm. On Sunday we were in the Bristol channel, in choppy conditions with 110% genoa and 2 reefs 26-28 knot apparent wind. I would have taken one reef out but SWMBO said no. On the way to Ireland she was happy with no reefs. At least we had no weather helm and not too much heeling.
A few months ago I would have just said one reef at 20 knots, two reefs at 26 knots. My 150% genoa has three spots which I generally use with each of the main reefs. I now think it is a much more complex thing and a lot of "feel" comes into it. There are also other factors like forcast, length of passage and if I want a peacefull sail or an adrenalin rush.
Allan
 
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Thanks - and be gentle ..

All - a very useful discussion. I am going to ***attempt*** a summary, which is aimed at a newbie, so bearing that in mind here goes:

Before you sail, consider the weather forecast for wind and sea state.

For a standard 30 foot boat, if the forecast is for F4/F5, with possible gusts to an F6, then get ready to put the first reef in before you leave, or as early in the route out as possible (if on a mooring, do it there, if on a pontoon that is restricted, go somewhere safe). For lighter/flightier boats, deduct one from the above - so F4/F5 gusting to F6 becomes F3/F4 gusting higher)

If the forecast is higher, reef deeper and earlier.

Go on, do your worst ....
 
Ubergeekian said:
That's about it for me. Plus "when preparing to sail overnight, put in at least one extra reef"
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So by implication you only ever motor or motor sail at night not sail alone? That to me suggests that you need to review the reefing system such that it is usable whether by night or by day. Our last boat at 41ft had a large sail area on a tall rig and yet there was only ever just two of us and we frequently did night sails. We had 3 slab reefs (2-line system) in a fully battened main over 300 sqft and could reef from the cockpit without difficulty even in the dark.
 
Robin said:
So by implication you only ever motor or motor sail at night not sail alone?
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How on earth do you manage to get that from what I wrote? Since when did "put in at least one extra reef" mean "start the engine"?

I meant precisely what I wrote. Except in the most benign conditions, I'll stick in one reef as a matter of course before it gets dark. If I've already got one reef in, I'll take another. If the forecast is iffy I'll take in another two.

On the Jouster I always changed to the storm jib for overnights as well - the new boat has this new fangled roller stuff, so I don't need to go that far, but I do tuck some of it away.

Why? Because I prefer an easier motion at night, my crew prefers and easier motion at night and if it does blow up a bit I prefer to avoid reefing in the dark, on my own, if I can. I will if I have too - changing headsails while single handed at night in a hooley is certainly character building - but I'd rather not, thanks.

You may, of course, do differently, and if there were two of us on deck, so might I. Maybe.
 
For our first three year cruise Adriana had a new main with only one reef in it which halved the sail area. I could put the reef in in about two minutes which I did usually at around 25k apparant when on the wind. We also had a storm trysail that, if we were setting off in heavy weather or had a deteriorating forecast, was set up on a separate track and bagged at the foot of the mast ready to go.
We had a storm jib, working jib and a genoa and also a drifter for off the wind light airs work. For longer offshore trips the storm jib was hanked on and bagged below the working jib so I could make short work of changing down should conditions dictate. The working jib and full main took us to about 25k on the wind, then the reef went in the main, then the storm jib was called for at gale strength.
This set up worked well for me although, clearly, there were times when we had either just a bit too much main or just bit too little, but it was never a big problem.
We didn't make a distinction between night and day, though I know that many sailors do reef down at night.
I like to keep things simple when cruising; I've had roller furling headsails on subsequent boats and never fully trusted the arrangement despite enjoying the convenience, and I've never been tempted to have mainsail reefing lines taken back to the cockpit - all that line and potential for foul-ups worries me!
Wow, when I read that back it makes me feel like the old man of the sea! I was cruising in the 90's not the 60's! Still, it's another viewpoint in these days of automation and gadgetry.
 
Ubergeekian said:
How on earth do you manage to get that from what I wrote? Since when did "put in at least one extra reef" mean "start the engine"?

I meant precisely what I wrote. Except in the most benign conditions, I'll stick in one reef as a matter of course before it gets dark. If I've already got one reef in, I'll take another. If the forecast is iffy I'll take in another two.

On the Jouster I always changed to the storm jib for overnights as well - the new boat has this new fangled roller stuff, so I don't need to go that far, but I do tuck some of it away.

Why? Because I prefer an easier motion at night, my crew prefers and easier motion at night and if it does blow up a bit I prefer to avoid reefing in the dark, on my own, if I can. I will if I have too - changing headsails while single handed at night in a hooley is certainly character building - but I'd rather not, thanks.

You may, of course, do differently, and if there were two of us on deck, so might I. Maybe.
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OK so you are happy at night to make a knot or two less under sail with less sail area than the weather demands which must make for a very lifeless boat going nowhere slowly and especially so in any sea. I'm not saying sail it powered right up but to be well under canvassed makes for a very unresponsive boat. My point is that if the reefing systems are set up properly it shouldn't make any difference whatsoever if it is night or day, the job is the same and the mechanics of doing it should be instinctive. We sailed many thousands of miles with just two of us (both bus pass holders) and frequently sailed at night. Our last boat had slab reefing and a roller genoa, all controlled from the cockpit, 300 sq ft of main and 600 sq ft of genoa and yet either of us could pull a reef in/out in the dark alone if need be. WE modified the reefing to be able to do that, otherwise with such a powerful rig it would have needed more (or really stronger) crew. On the boat before that, a Westerly 33 ketch, we had standard 3 slab reefing at the mast but the mizzen was in the cockpit and in effect the 1st reef so again either one of us could take or shake a reef in the dark without the need to go on deck, although the basic slab system was simple enough to do so, even in the dark, where needed, or we rolled in more genoa.

There is perhaps a difference of scale involved here in the thinking. You apparently still use separate non-roller headsails on one boat whereas we had roller genoas once we moved up from a fully suited 30ft Elizabethan half tonner, simply because the very size of the headsails made it difficult for a small crew. The roller genoa on the W33 was heavy and bulky enough but on the SL41 it was a two person job even to lift it, let alone bag it on the foredeck. There should be no problem with putting a few more rolls in if and when needed in the dark and even if this is done instead of another reef in the main.
 
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