How much to offer vs. broker's asking price?

[Maxra]

Hi: I'm interested in buying a small sailing cruiser for less than £15k. It seemed these boats (all boats?) were thin on the market in 2020 and 2021. Now there appear to be a lot more for sale, and I have some popular designs in sight that might do the job (Hawk, Shrimper, Bay Raider and similar boats). I get the impression that In UK it's customary to ask a good deal more for a decent boat than you expect to get. I'd appreciate some views on what kind of % reduction on the asking you might expect to be successful at the moment. That's assuming condition etc is reflected in the asking, and the owner is realistic.

 

[Tranona]

Offer what you think it is worth to you. Currently good boats are selling at or above asking price. Brokers in particular usually set asking price close to final price because they know what boats have sold for.

Your last sentence says it all if the asking price reflects the condition then the owner is realistic - so why expect him to consider a lower offer. The particular boats you mention are in high demand so if you start by trying to get a reduction you are likely to be disappointed.

 

[Maxra]

...Currently good boats are selling at or above asking price...

Your last sentence says it all if the asking price reflects the condition then the owner is realistic - so why expect him to consider a lower offer. The particular boats you mention are in high demand so if you start by trying to get a reduction you are likely to be disappointed.

Thanks Tranona - interesting because it's not what I was hearing from most sailors and surveyors I asked about this pre Covid (Covid upset my boat buying plans for a while). Have things changed that much, what do you all think?

 

[RJJ]

There's no substitute for your own market research. Or rather, you can hire a buying broker but at this level you are unlikely to do so. You need your own view of what these boats are actually selling for, vs what they are asking, and also your own view of what YOU are willing to pay. One way to develop a view of selling prices....is to go ahead and make an offer or two at a price that would delight you (and probably won't be accepted), and see what reaction you get and if there's appetite to negotiate.

Some people will "ask" a price that engenders a quick sale. Others will ask a speculative higher amount, typically if they are happy enough to continue owning for a bit longer. Sometimes the seller is just plain wrong. So? The asking price is only of significance as a filtering device and if you choose to pay attention to it.

Once you have done some research, it's up to you to make YOUR offer reflecting condition, and see what works. If it's declined, keep looking, and call back weekly to see if the boat is still available. If after a couple of weeks there are no other offers, you can very reasonably suggest the seller comes down towards you. Equally, you run the risk that it's sold to someone else.

A good question to ask is always "in my opinion the asking is a bit high. What would I need to offer you to agree it today?" Anything you are willing to offer within 10pc of that merits consideration. If you think it's more than 10pc too high, it's probably best to say so politely and not make an offer, let the seller work it out, and come back in a week or two.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks Tranona - interesting because it's not what I was hearing from most sailors and surveyors I asked about this pre Covid (Covid upset my boat buying plans for a while). Have things changed that much, what do you all think?

History! since then prices on average have risen 15-20% and there is a shortage of good boats. I sold my boat in January for about 15% more than I expected and not much less than I paid new 6 years previously. including mine 4 sold in a 3 month period all for much the same price and all for the asking price.

I am afraid you will be disappointed of you think you will get a good boat for significantly less than asking price unless you wait a few weeks and it remains unsold - and if it is there is probably something wring with it. Of course this situation may well change over the next few months when inflation and stagnation start to bite, but at the moment it is a sellers market (unlike 2-3 years ago).

 

[Refueler]

As a buyer of a number of boats over the years ... surveyor of many for prospective purchasers and insurance.... till just a few years ago.

Sorry but advertised price is usually based on :

What seller paid for it himself and he thinks he can still get similar
Seller looks around at other similar boats and thinks same is applicable regardless of his boats condition
Some brokers convince sellers to be sole broker by quoting a high price

Put those and the oft too high price asked by others and you get prices that often can be brought down to reality.

I would in principle as in buying a 2nd hand car ... look for price reduction. How much offered depends on how much you are prepared to pay ... how much you want the boat ... what impression you get of seller ...
Ask around the yard - if anyone knows how long boats been for sale .... maybe you even get some titbits of history ...

My present boat - I paid what seller asked (private sale) ... it was obvious he would not come down ... even though he was asking what was max ... BUT the boat fitted my needs at the time and has been a good boat for many years for me. Its local history was also of an owner who lovingly cared for it.
My previous boat - I paid only half what guy asked ... various reasons why - but that's what I paid. 5 years later sold it for similar.

IMHO - rarely is asking price a real value ...

 

[Tranona]

As a buyer of a number of boats over the years ... surveyor of many for prospective purchasers and insurance.... till just a few years ago.

Sorry but advertised price is usually based on :

What seller paid for it himself and he thinks he can still get similar
Seller looks around at other similar boats and thinks same is applicable regardless of his boats condition
Some brokers convince sellers to be sole broker by quoting a high price

Put those and the oft too high price asked by others and you get prices that often can be brought down to reality.

I would in principle as in buying a 2nd hand car ... look for price reduction. How much offered depends on how much you are prepared to pay ... how much you want the boat ... what impression you get of seller ...
Ask around the yard - if anyone knows how long boats been for sale .... maybe you even get some titbits of history ...

My present boat - I paid what seller asked (private sale) ... it was obvious he would not come down ... even though he was asking what was max ... BUT the boat fitted my needs at the time and has been a good boat for many years for me. Its local history was also of an owner who lovingly cared for it.
My previous boat - I paid only half what guy asked ... various reasons why - but that's what I paid. 5 years later sold it for similar.

IMHO - rarely is asking price a real value ...

This may well have been much the case in the past when supply exceeded demand, but you will find in the UK 9if you were here) that is no longer the case. The OP is wanting to buy a boat now and needs to understand current market conditions. While it is true that many boat are "over priced" in the "project" sector of the market, Good quality ready to go boats have been rising in price as the supply declines. If a boat is overpriced it does not sell quickly so the OP can just wait for the seller to drop his price - fear that is unlikely to happen unless there is something wrong with the boat.

Suggest you do a search on popular boats for sale in the UK and see how limited the choice is. BTW same with second hand cars - I bought my 2017 Ford C Max in late 2019 for £13000 - 3 years later they are selling in the range £11500-12500.

Not saying this is a permanent state of, although I fear it is because the supply of good used boats is shrinking as they get older and virtually no new boats in the smaller sizes coming in.

 

[westernman]

There is no consistent or reliable correspondence between asking price and value/final sale price.

 

[Maxra]

Thanks guys. I agree the boats I mentioned are popular (and these also hold their value better than many). However it feels like the boat market (in common with other things) may be slowly returning towards 2019 supply levels - particularly for Shrimper 19s. Some owners are moving up to the slightly longer but considerably more habitable Shrimper 21, and there are now quite a few 19s for sale. The boat I like most has already been reduced a bit, as have others at the same broker - and there may be special local circumstances. It's out of the water in a location where the sailing season for many is 1st April-end September - we're 2/3 through their season. I'd guess sellers are starting to consider the possibility of another winter's keep for a boat they don't sail. Any other thoughts?

 

[KevinV]

I'd guess sellers are starting to consider the possibility of another winter's keep for a boat they don't sail. Any other thoughts?

You could just as easily argue that the summer holidays have only just started and they still have the intention to use it this year ?‍
Whichever way you spin things you have to find a level that both you and the seller are happy with, and there's only one way to find that: talk to them. There's no need to be rude, but a firm "I love it, exactly what I'm after, but it's a bit over what I had in mind" gets things moving

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just one suggestion, don't put an offer that's going to be insulting , you may need some info or even help at a later date from them .

 

[[70521]]

As others have said offer what you think the boat is worth to you. Have a look at lots of boats and make a judgment.

When I was looking for my first boat, 10 years ago, there was a lot on the market about the same price. Some were in tip top condition others you walked away from without even going on board.

 

[Keith 66]

Look at secondhand cars, two years ago my wife bought a three year old low milage Honda cars of that same year are now selling for 5 grand more than she paid.
Boats are similar, lots of worn out old wrecks that need a small fortune spending on them are now virtually worthless, Boats that have had the money spent & are in good nick are selling well at good prices.
Seems round here good ones are selling for near their asking prices.

 

[Refueler]

This may well have been much the case in the past when supply exceeded demand, but you will find in the UK 9if you were here) that is no longer the case. The OP is wanting to buy a boat now and needs to understand current market conditions. While it is true that many boat are "over priced" in the "project" sector of the market, Good quality ready to go boats have been rising in price as the supply declines. If a boat is overpriced it does not sell quickly so the OP can just wait for the seller to drop his price - fear that is unlikely to happen unless there is something wrong with the boat.

Suggest you do a search on popular boats for sale in the UK and see how limited the choice is. BTW same with second hand cars - I bought my 2017 Ford C Max in late 2019 for £13000 - 3 years later they are selling in the range £11500-12500.

Not saying this is a permanent state of, although I fear it is because the supply of good used boats is shrinking as they get older and virtually no new boats in the smaller sizes coming in.

Just because I no longer live in UK does not mean I am out of touch about UK boat market ... far from it in fact.

I am myself considering another boat to add to my 'fleet' ... and I scour sales sites and also keep in touch with many boating contacts I have in UK ... industry and non.

The problem particularly since start of this year - is the steady increase across the markets whether it be cars / boats / gasoline etc. 'Fueled' by increased cost of living and utilities. But it has two sides to the coin ... unless well off - people don't have the spare money for paying the inflated prices. Sellers are often under pressure to sell.

Sorry but business is business ....

 

[Maxra]

Suggest you do a search on popular boats for sale in the UK and see how limited the choice is.

I did just that recently, and the supply of Shrimper 19s appears to be considerably greater than it was last year or 2021. What I noticed there is more older boats coming onto the market in the £10K-£12K range (where I'm looking) than the more expensive ones at £20K and up. In this lower range, price does seem to depend more on condition than age, with sail numbers anywhere from low double figures to maybe 400 - that's quite an age range. I'm told this is perhaps a reflection that the basic boat is well built and is worth reviving even if neglected - and also that MK1 outboard Shrimpers appear more popular for racing than the more expensive Mk II inboards.

 

[Dutch01527]

I recently bought a boat that was originally advertised for £49k. Buyer was trying to see if he could recoupe the c£20k plus of new kit fitted over the last few years. Engine, sails, electronics, canvas ect, ect

No takers and price was reduced to £39k. No takers and price was reduced to £35k - about market value. The seller accepted an offer from another buyer at £30k.

Buyer fell through and and boat was ”sold” again at £29k. Sale fell through again because of surveyor commenting that there were some signs of possible, minor, historical osmosis. Basically a few 1-2cm imperfections under the anti foul.

I bought the boat for £22k quick cash after talking to the surveyor. The buyer was fed up of messing about and had his new boat ready to be collected and put on the mooring.

I was not looking for a new boat but this one ticked all my boxes and I recognised value. Timing is the key to buying a boat that offers great value. That needs patience to wait and flexibility to move quickly if an opportunity arises.

Delighted with the purchase and I have inspected the suspected osmosis by scrapping off the anti foul in suspicious places and found no signs at all. I think that the previous anti foul had flaked a bit and then been painted over without proper preparation.

 

[Tranona]

I did just that recently, and the supply of Shrimper 19s appears to be considerably greater than it was last year or 2021. What I noticed there is more older boats coming onto the market in the £10K-£12K range (where I'm looking) than the more expensive ones at £20K and up. In this lower range, price does seem to depend more on condition than age, with sail numbers anywhere from low double figures to maybe 400 - that's quite an age range. I'm told this is perhaps a reflection that the basic boat is well built and is worth reviving even if neglected - and also that MK1 outboard Shrimpers appear more popular for racing than the more expensive Mk II inboards.

Shrimpers are unusual in that (as you have discovered) the price range is very narrow. This is because unlike many boats they are homogenous products - that is there are really only 2 types and there are many of each in use (and for sale), plus they have a strong club type following so many buyers and sellers and near "perfect" knowledge about prices. A level economics tells you these are the characteristics of a perfect market. That means the asking price is close to the market price - if one is pitched higher it won't sell because buyers know what it should be. Of course there are variations around the market price - location, trailer or not, quality of sails and motor, but unlikely to result in prices outside +/- 10%. I would expect most sales are achieved outside the advertise market, and few through brokers - the latter add little to the party and their minimum charges are a significant amount in relation to value, As you say they are very simple boats, well built and the cost of turning a neglected one into pristine is low compared with a cruiser. Mostly graft , varnish and polish so the chances of getting a bargain neglected boat are low.

The only thing that affects general price levels is supply and demand, and it is lack of supply that has caused prices to rise recently (and in the case of newer boats, rising prices of new builds) and in the future inflation will ensure that prices will only go up. Do not forget demand factors as well. Boats are bought by well paid people with high (relative) discretionary income. Such people have done well in the last 2 years because of reduced expenditure from discretionary income leading to higher savings and switching of such spare income and savings away from traditional things like holidays to assets like boats, home improvements, classic cars and so on. Just as an example, although I am retired in 2020/2 I "saved" enough to buy my project boat - similar sum to that which you are planning on spending. Very simple - no eating out, 2000 miles a year instead of 6, no travelling or holidays and so on. Of course things have changed now and such savings have now started to decline, living costs are rising in real terms borrowing costs are rising and asset prices will stabilise (in real terms).

Sorry for the long winded reply, but the message is, boats of that type and quality will never be cheaper, and the capital cost is only the entry fee to ongoing costs which over the lifetime of owning a boat will exceed the purchase price. So buy the best boat you can find - now.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

@Tranona quite right.

 

[ylop]

Just one suggestion, don't put an offer that's going to be insulting , you may need some info or even help at a later date from them .

Surely if the offer is insulting he doesn’t sell you the boat and so you never need help from him. However I could imagine that if you make silly offers through brokers you are going to move onto their list of time wasters.

I think if you negotiate hard on the price then come back after a survey complaining that X, Y, Z need fixing then you may get a lot less room for agreement than if your initial price was good. I note that Brokers don’t remove boats from website when a sale is still pending so they are still lining up fall back options if you try to wriggle lots more off the price at the survey stage.

there does seem to be a little more supply of boats recently, but good examples don’t seem to be on the market for long. Im sure there will be owners now who overpaid and will be reluctant to sell at what 2022/23actually thinks their boat is worth. I’m sure other owners are subconsciously keen to talk up the market Bouyancy in the hope of selling in 2/3/4 yrs time.

 

[Maxra]

.... buy the best boat you can find - now.

That sounds like good general advice, particularly the 'now' bit. Buying boats appears to be like moving out of London or going travelling - lots of people talk about it compared to the numbers who actually do it. In this case I seem to need not ultimately the best boat, but the best boat for my purposes, which narrows it a lot. For once the money gods are with me - it appears a MK1 outboard Shrimper (the cheapest of the breed) is what I need. They appear to be the variety regarded as best for club racing, which I've identified as my main purpose. An outboard boat also leaves the electric option open, and I have no plans to be slogging through big seas under engine, or motoring distances ditto.

Some might be thinking 'Why would you want to race a Shrimper?' Well, all 19s have the same handicap which makes it more 'boat against boat', and like Morris dancers, they're a sociable bunch. I hope to learn a lot. The finish time spread in a Shrimper racing can be huge, which suggests at the slow end there's people possibly no better than me racing them. At the fast end there's some seriously good sailors to watch and (hopefully) learn from.