How much should I be paying for a new BETA 14 engine?

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Before I walk onto the Beta stand at Soton boatshow, any idea how much I should be paying for a BETA 14 hp engine.

What questions should I be asking?

I am replacing a Yanmar 1gm10.

In anticipation, thanks
 
Steve Clayton said:
Well, I'll start then:

What are the warranty conditions? eg: who can install?, who approves/signs off the install such that warranty is maintained, 1st service conditions, etc
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I'd be blunt and ask "Why should I buy your marinised Kubota engine rather than a Nanni one or a Vetus one? Why are yours cheaper?"
 
Went through exactly that process a couple of years ago. I ended up with a Nanni. Think you will find that walking between the two stands and being a serious buyer will end up with nearly identical prices, spec for spec. There are minor differences in the standard spec like alternators and oil extraction pumps. The warranties are essentially the same and both permit self installation and verification to preserve the warranty. I chose the Nanni because of the iron heat exchanger housing and blue matches the colour of my boat! You could also toss a coin! Not worth looking at any of the other brands as they do not easily replace a 1GM.

Other questions to ask are about shaft couplings, exhausts and anti syphon valves. The exhausts are on the opposite side from the 1GM and a different size. 1GM is 45mm, Beta is 50mm, Nanni is 40mm, so you have to figure out how you are going to mate up to your existing exhaust, either with a stepped coupler or a new spigot on the water trap. I used a Bullflex coupling as my shaft is rigid, but a Centaflex type is more usual. The Nanni has a stepped hose from the HE to the exhaust so you need an antisyphon valve with stepped spigots so it is (from memory) 15mm in 21mm out. The raw water intake on either engine is 3/4" as opposed to 1/2" for the 1GM, so new valve and strainer.

You may well find you have to raise your bearers by around 30mm, the width spacing is virtually the same, but mounts are different spacing fore and aft. The gearbox ratios are different from the 1GM at 2:1 or 2.6:1 option so you may need to change your propeller.

Overall, though just about the most straightforward swap there is.
 
When I bought one 6 or 8 years ago, I got 25%ish off list. So it pays for your VAT. Probably everyone asking got the same, you might even do better, I was happy, wanted the engine and thought the deal was ok.
The list price policy may have changed but I doubt it. If you buy through a yard, or are not in a position to barter, I guess you get boned for the full price.

You don't need to go to the show but it helps to flit around with the final figures, etc. Get the poly-vee alternator belt drive. Consider the high rise exhaust if you have the space - I can't see it on the current options list but assume it still exists.
 
I paid about £3300 for mine. It included the shallow sump but otherwise was the standard engine. I collected myself, saving £60 and also getting me a factory tour and run through of the engine on its pallet.

I was going to use TS Marine to fit it and that would have cost me another £3500 for the install (including parts) as everything around the engine needed to be replaced (from engine bed, through to moving and changing the exhaust) so I used the shipwrights who were already working on the boat plus my normal engineer. I still don't know if that was a wise decision or not because they kept finding more and more things that needed doing and the costs ran a way a little.
 
To give you an idea, we had a new Beta 25 supplied and the basic fitting done by TS Marine in December last year. The costs were as follows - obviously a smaller engine will be a little cheaper, but most of the other costs will be the same. Note that "basic fitting" inc removal of old engine, fabricate new engine beds, crane in and aline new engine, fitting new prop shaft, cutlass bearing, stern gland, prop. I did all the plumbing (fuel and cooling water), electrics, fitted throttle control etc. The all in fitting price would have been £1460, rather than £760, but I was happy to do the easier bits myself. The lift in and out has not been included, as we do that each year anyway.
The price looks particularly high because of the new prop (which is excellent)
I sold the old Bukh for about £550 on e-bay - TS Marine were very good at putting it on a pallet, forklifting it onto the buyers trailer, and accepting the cash from the buyer, which was knocked off my bill.


Beta 25, inc 70 A alternator & panel £3,630.00
Delivery £78.00
Hi Rise cross over exhaust £125.00
Prop shaft, 1" £150.00
Cutlass bearing £35.00
Centaflex coupling £135.00
PSS Shaft seal £155.00
Throttle control inc cables £140.00
VDO Senders (for existing guages) £95.00
Prop, Darglow FeatherStream 16" £1,120.00
Water strainer, 3/4" (Ebay) £35.00
Skin fitting and sea cock (3/4" DZR Brass) £85
Oil & antifreeze £25.00
Sundries £100.00
Labour £760.00

Sub total £6,668.00
VAT £1,333.60
Total £8,001.60
 
I bought mine from TS Marine and fitted it myself with a professional assistant (he might see it the other way round)

Give Scott a call and ask him, because I doubt you will get a much better price anywhere else. Then go to the Boatshow, see what they say, and you will have options.
 
I have a huge distrust of any company which offers non-straightforward pricing. Crusader Sails, for example, always seem to have 25% off at shows ... why the hell should I pay them 33% more if I'm not ordering at a show?
 
JumbleDuck said:
I have a huge distrust of any company which offers non-straightforward pricing. Crusader Sails, for example, always seem to have 25% off at shows ... why the hell should I pay them 33% more if I'm not ordering at a show?
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Simple supply and demand. Supplier goes to boat show with an empty order book because nobody is desperate for sails/new engines etc. Therefore reduce prices to encourage orders before people need the goods and while your workers would otherwise be twiddling their thumbs.

Try ordering sails in March when everyone is screaming for delivery before the season starts and the price goes up.

Your choice - buy now to reduce your cost or wait until the high demand period and pay more.
 
Tranona said:
Simple supply and demand. Supplier goes to boat show with an empty order book because nobody is desperate for sails/new engines etc. Therefore reduce prices to encourage orders before people need the goods and while your workers would otherwise be twiddling their thumbs.

Try ordering sails in March when everyone is screaming for delivery before the season starts and the price goes up.
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I have no problem with seasonal discounts, as long as they are clearly signposted and uniformly applied. It's the business of "chat to them and they'll do you a deal" which annoys me, because it's another way of saying "they'll charge you what they think they can get away with". Which is fine, but I prefer not to do business that way.

Did you know that price labels were introduced by Quaker traders in the nineteenth century for just this reason? Their principles on equality meant that everyone had to be charged the same, and at the time prices were generally bespoke.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I have no problem with seasonal discounts, as long as they are clearly signposted and uniformly applied. It's the business of "chat to them and they'll do you a deal" which annoys me, because it's another way of saying "they'll charge you what they think they can get away with". Which is fine, but I prefer not to do business that way.

Did you know that price labels were introduced by Quaker traders in the nineteenth century for just this reason? Their principles on equality meant that everyone had to be charged the same, and at the time prices were generally bespoke.
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And now supermarkets dont use labels on the product so you forget what you paid last time, so masking price rises
 
JumbleDuck said:
I have no problem with seasonal discounts, as long as they are clearly signposted and uniformly applied. It's the business of "chat to them and they'll do you a deal" which annoys me, because it's another way of saying "they'll charge you what they think they can get away with". Which is fine, but I prefer not to do business that way.

Did you know that price labels were introduced by Quaker traders in the nineteenth century for just this reason? Their principles on equality meant that everyone had to be charged the same, and at the time prices were generally bespoke.
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That is the way prices are kept artificially high. Remove the element of negotiation between buyer and seller and prices are set at suboptimal level. Markets work because of that negotiation process.

Even Edward Heath eventually realised that when he removed price controls. The "uncertainty" is the price we pay for lower prices. You could of course go back to price controls where everybody is exploited equally badly and there is no freedom of choice.
 
Steve Clayton said:
Well, I'll start then:

What are the warranty conditions? eg: who can install?, who approves/signs off the install such that warranty is maintained, 1st service conditions, etc
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Add in " where is it marinised/". I believe Nanni are French. Beta are English. To me that matters.
 
Tranona said:
That is the way prices are kept artificially high. Remove the element of negotiation between buyer and seller and prices are set at suboptimal level. Markets work because of that negotiation process.
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The transparency of published prices is precisely what enables effective competition between sellers and allows the market to work properly. For example, I need to buy a 32GB microSD card in the next couple of weeks. Amazon and eBay allow me to compare prices from scores of sellers; it would be impossible to negotiate with more than a tiny fraction of those, and the time cost to them of doing so individually for each sale would increase the amount they had to charge.

On a similar basis, if I am comparing a Yanmar, a Beta, a Nanni and a Vetus I want to be able to look up a dependable list price for each.

This has nothing to do with price controls.
 
JumbleDuck said:
The transparency of published prices is precisely what enables effective competition between sellers and allows the market to work properly. For example, I need to buy a 32GB microSD card in the next couple of weeks. Amazon and eBay allow me to compare prices from scores of sellers; it would be impossible to negotiate with more than a tiny fraction of those, and the time cost to them of doing so individually for each sale would increase the amount they had to charge.

On a similar basis, if I am comparing a Yanmar, a Beta, a Nanni and a Vetus I want to be able to look up a dependable list price for each.

This has nothing to do with price controls.
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There is a big difference between low value commodity products where the price "negotiation" is done at market level and the purchase of high value, purchases of items that are partly individually specified.

You talked about the value of fixed published prices being good for "equality" and I suggested that it is more to do with avoiding negotiation to get the price that both seller and buyer agree is acceptable. It is thinking like that which led to the net book price agreement (thankfully gone) and resulted in lack of competition and high prices.

Confused by the term "dependable" price list. sounds like take it or leave it to me. By all means have an indicative price list for initial comparisons, but the only price that matters is the one you actually pay. Would you really buy a more expensive product just because the price is fixed so that everybody has to pay the same price? It doesn't happen in any other consumer market, so why should it happen in the marine market?
 
Tranona said:
There is a big difference between low value commodity products where the price "negotiation" is done at market level and the purchase of high value, purchases of items that are partly individually specified.
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Of course. I would expect to negotiate individually the price of a GT35; I would not expect to negotiate individually the price of a mass produced diesel engine.

You talked about the value of fixed published prices being good for "equality" and I suggested that it is more to do with avoiding negotiation to get the price that both seller and buyer agree is acceptable. It is thinking like that which led to the net book price agreement (thankfully gone) and resulted in lack of competition and high prices.
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Fixed published prices allow for easy comparison between sellers. Individually set prices don't. The abolition of the NBA would be pointless if you didn't know until you got to the till how much a particular bookshop wanted to charge you for a book.

Confused by the term "dependable" price list. sounds like take it or leave it to me. By all means have an indicative price list for initial comparisons, but the only price that matters is the one you actually pay. Would you really buy a more expensive product just because the price is fixed so that everybody has to pay the same price? It doesn't happen in any other consumer market, so why should it happen in the marine market?
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It happens in every other consumer market there is: people generally buy at the lowest price. To do that they have to know what the prices are. Transparency is an essential part of a free market.
 
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