How much rain will cure hosepipe issues/canal depth/reservoir levels?

ghostlymoron said:
As an ex water company engineer, it infuriates me when ill-informed statements such as this are made. Water companies have already spent millions on leak finding and repairing. The majority of remaining leaks are below ground and not visible from the surface. The only realistic solution is a program of replacement of ageing pipelines over a period of years - starting with the oldest some of which are over a century old. The problem is that Ofwat will not grasp the nettle and endure the resulting flack from customers whose roads are dug up and water charges raised. Yes, this is going to cost a lot of money! and the cost would not be spread equally over the whole population.
The current approach is to improve the instrumentation on service networks and identify where the flows are greater than theoretical predictions, indicating leakage as well as improved response to reported surface leaks but repair of one leak on an aged system often results in the water finding the next weak spot.
Water is an undervalued resource and fantastically good value at under £1 per cu metre. How much would a similar amount of the bottled variety cost?
Rant over
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So what you are telling me I'm wrong in saying there are leaks; but, there are actually still leaks below ground that can't be seen or easilly detected from the surface. It'll cost a lot of cash to mend them and or replace the ageing pipes, it'll cause a bit of disruption, cause a polital crisis and loose people some votes and directors a large bonus payment for a year or 5. OK, so the shareholders take a hit for a few years and bonus may need to be restructured to pay for it (some sort of pipework perfomance related system!). I'm not in the hit the top man bracket I believe in private enterprise, but the buck stops somewhere - usually near the top!

Water is cheap enough in the UK if £1.00 a cube is correct, I've paid £3.00 a cube in Greece and other places. So you pay more for water, save a bit by not wasting it, recylce what you can, and find a catchment system that suits your home to keep the cost down. Maybe some Government initiative to encourage a sustainable use of water and installing catchment systems? There are enough SUDS and similar systems around for getting rid of rainfall from buildings, roads and commercial developments into storm drains and soakaways, anybody got a sensible argument for not utilising these?

Not rocket science is it, education and moving over to sustainability is the answer. It'll never catch on though, the UK was light years behind Europe when I got out of sustainable building. Most of the people really don't give a **** so long as they have instant everything cheaply!!

The bottom line is: HOW IMPORTANT IS THE PLANET AND ITS NATURAL RESOUCES. WASTING WATER IS AS BAD AS CHOPPING DOWN RAIN FORREST FOR GARDEN FURNITURE!!

Q. Which side of fence are sitting on.
1. Lets use it all and see what happens, it'll be for somebody else to sort out?
2. I'm on the fence I can't be bothered, it's all too much trouble?
3. I think we'd better have a serious think about this and see what I and my family can do about it?

Our planet, your call!
 
Ariadne, I'm not saving that invisible leaks aren't leaks - just that they're awfully difficult to locate.
It would cost a lot more than than a few directors' bonuses to pay for replacing the country's water infrastructure.
I'm on side 3 of the fence incidentally
 
Ghostlymoron, that's OK, I was just a bit confused at what you were saying.

All those scientists, engineers and consultants are going to love a bunch bods wandering around with hazel twigs! It does work though - my Dad got one in when he needed a well bored, the old bugger was spot and within 5m of the actual depth drilled (90m); he found 4 suitable places and was acurate on all of them!
 
Is there any understood science, in divination?

I just heard we can expect lots of wind and rain, early next week. So, maybe the two months' worth we need, is coming...
 
ghostlymoron said:
Ariadne, I'm not saving that invisible leaks aren't leaks - just that they're awfully difficult to locate.
It would cost a lot more than than a few directors' bonuses to pay for replacing the country's water infrastructure.
I'm on side 3 of the fence incidentally
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Agree, but if a replacement programme for the old pipes had started 30 years ago we would not have had the problems we are having now. In addition more new reservoirs and or desalination plants should have been started to meet future demand. Such a programme of works would have spread the cost and the disruption and could have been done to fit in with other road works as most roads have been dug up at least once in that time.
This is not the fault of the workers on the ground but rather a dismal failure to plan by the bosses of water companies while at the same time pocketing ever increasing bonus'.
 
What an odd place the UK is with the weather difference over a relatively small area.
Oop ere in the North our water table has risen over the last 6 years in my vicinity and we have permanent ponds again that have been dry for a couple of decades or so.

One called "the water meadow" was just a bit boggy with a few rushes when we moved here 6years ago and its been a permanent pond, 2-3 feet deep now for a good 4 years.

Older locals used to tell tales of fishing in it when we moved here, tales we regarded as being a bit of an exaggeration as it was just a large overgrown bowl of dried out mud at the time.
 
jordanbasset said:
Agree, but if a replacement programme for the old pipes had started 30 years ago we would not have had the problems we are having now. In addition more new reservoirs and or desalination plants should have been started to meet future demand. Such a programme of works would have spread the cost and the disruption and could have been done to fit in with other road works as most roads have been dug up at least once in that time.
This is not the fault of the workers on the ground but rather a dismal failure to plan by the bosses of water companies while at the same time pocketing ever increasing bonus'.
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Unfortunately you can only start from where you are. Water shortage has not been a problem in the UK until recently (except 1976) thanks to the overdesign by earlier Victorian engineers and there would have been little appetite for investment in extra storage facilities. With the exception of Carsington and Kielder.
Desalination is a last resort IMHO because of the high power requirement of reverse osmosis. We should be looking at distributing the resources from North to South for existing population and discouraging further development in the dry parts of the country. If you can't provide water, you shouldn't build more houses/factories.
Bosses bonuses are a curse of all industries but are insignificant compared with the million pounds per mile cost of new water main.
 
ghostlymoron said:
Unfortunately you can only start from where you are. Water shortage has not been a problem in the UK until recently (except 1976) thanks to the overdesign by earlier Victorian engineers and there would have been little appetite for investment in extra storage facilities. With the exception of Carsington and Kielder.
Desalination is a last resort IMHO because of the high power requirement of reverse osmosis. We should be looking at distributing the resources from North to South for existing population and discouraging further development in the dry parts of the country. If you can't provide water, you shouldn't build more houses/factories.
Bosses bonuses are a curse of all industries but are insignificant compared with the million pounds per mile cost of new water main.
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Agree you can only start from where you are now, but do not think those people who got us there should be rewarded for failure.-
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/water-fatcats-defend-2million-bonuses-782685
"Water fatcats defend £2million bonuses despite 300million gallons lost to leaks every day
Two of the seven firms which imposed bans failed to meet their targets for reducing water leakage – but still handed over large bonuses"

The people receiving these bonus' are not entrepreneurs risking their own money, they are in effect administrators of local monopolies. Their main role is to keep us supplied with water, they are failing.
Perhaps my memory is playing me tricks but am sure I can remember hose pipe bans between 1976 and now?
As you said earlier many of these pipes are over a century old, many are leaking, it should not have taken a genius to work out it will not get better on it's own.
This is not an attack on you but rather those that have failed in their basic duties and are being rewarded for it. They are then putting the onus on the public to get them out of the mess they created. It would be nice if they took responsibility and refused all bonus' until they have fixed the problems.
 
jordanbasset said:
Agree you can only start from where you are now, but do not think those people who got us there should be rewarded for failure.-
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/water-fatcats-defend-2million-bonuses-782685
"Water fatcats defend £2million bonuses despite 300million gallons lost to leaks every day
Two of the seven firms which imposed bans failed to meet their targets for reducing water leakage – but still handed over large bonuses"

The people receiving these bonus' are not entrepreneurs risking their own money, they are in effect administrators of local monopolies. Their main role is to keep us supplied with water, they are failing.
Perhaps my memory is playing me tricks but am sure I can remember hose pipe bans between 1976 and now?
As you said earlier many of these pipes are over a century old, many are leaking, it should not have taken a genius to work out it will not get better on it's own.
This is not an attack on you but rather those that have failed in their basic duties and are being rewarded for it. They are then putting the onus on the public to get them out of the mess they created. It would be nice if they took responsibility and refused all bonus' until they have fixed the problems.
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Good points - I'm not in favour of large, un-earned bonuses either. However, they have a balancing act between the amount they need to spend on capital schemes and the amount the customers (us) are prepared to pay. If they were to embark on replacing the whole pipe network within a year, the costs would be enormous and would have to come from the customers - where else? There are costs associated with doing nothing, a lot of unscheduled and unplanned isolated repairs, but obviously the pencilnecks see this as the preferred option. In the long term, the whole network will have to be replaced and better to start now IMHO.
 
ghostlymoron said:
Good points - I'm not in favour of large, un-earned bonuses either. However, they have a balancing act between the amount they need to spend on capital schemes and the amount the customers (us) are prepared to pay. If they were to embark on replacing the whole pipe network within a year, the costs would be enormous and would have to come from the customers - where else? There are costs associated with doing nothing, a lot of unscheduled and unplanned isolated repairs, but obviously the pencilnecks see this as the preferred option. In the long term, the whole network will have to be replaced and better to start now IMHO.
Click to expand...

Agree with that
 
jordanbasset said:
Agree you can only start from where you are now, but do not think those people who got us there should be rewarded for failure.-
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/water-fatcats-defend-2million-bonuses-782685
"Water fatcats defend £2million bonuses despite 300million gallons lost to leaks every day
Two of the seven firms which imposed bans failed to meet their targets for reducing water leakage – but still handed over large bonuses"

The people receiving these bonus' are not entrepreneurs risking their own money, they are in effect administrators of local monopolies. Their main role is to keep us supplied with water, they are failing.
Perhaps my memory is playing me tricks but am sure I can remember hose pipe bans between 1976 and now?
As you said earlier many of these pipes are over a century old, many are leaking, it should not have taken a genius to work out it will not get better on it's own.
This is not an attack on you but rather those that have failed in their basic duties and are being rewarded for it. They are then putting the onus on the public to get them out of the mess they created. It would be nice if they took responsibility and refused all bonus' until they have fixed the problems.
Click to expand...

Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind, it'll never happen there's too much money in it. It'll carry on until the water runs out, and it will. I'm sure industry could pay for most of the work and then increase the cost to say £2.00m3 for domestic customers and fit a water meter to all dwellings - not just new builds.

AT the end of the day it's down to getting your your local MP and his mates in London to sort things out; no political will power = nothing done. So with a house full of career politicians and a politically chosen House of Lords, nothing will be done so long as the money rolls in; just about sums up the UK for last 25 years then!
 
Water, for Christmas?

I read today that the drought is expected to last till Christmas. Why should it be reckoned to end then?

I wonder how needy we'll have to be for water, before theoretical, 'proposed' new reservoirs become urgent projects? I imagine compulsory purchase of land in valleys required for reservoirs, would be made in days, if we suddenly couldn't water crops.

It's crazy if we invariably wait till it's desperate (and possibly too late) before the wheels seriously start turning.

How does that pricey pipeline-from-the-Highlands compare cost-wise, with Western Australia's desalination plants, or horrendously costly pipe-repairs, or half a dozen new thousand-acre reservoirs, which'd need years to fill, anyway?

Presumably having a reservoir, full or empty, would allow it to be filled, if we had the pipeline from rainier parts.

If we're sustaining our use of water mainly from underground supplies while they're not consistently replenished...

...aren't we edging blindly and conceitedly towards a ghastly dustbowl crisis, with widespread economic fallout?

I can't help thinking we shouldn't only have hosepipe bans - we ought to limit all freshwater use, the way we do aboard yachts!
 
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