How much of a difference does a topping lift make?

[TernVI]

Our boat is a little larger but I've always done the same when reefing the main. I was taught (by coincidence, by Glenans in France) that reefing should be done by taking the boom up to the sail, not the sail down to the boom......

Allan

That only works if your reef tack is on a tackle.
Most boats with ramshorns or equivalent at the gooseneck, if you tighten the reef clew first, the tack is pulled away from the ramshorn.
You should also check it's not abusing the sail near the luff, you might be putting a lot of load on one or two sliders, or the luff rope at the feeder.
As the boom drops to level, the foot will tighten.

However you do it, it's best to go through it all slow under no stress, checking out that nothing is being overstressed or abused.
If you haven't done that, it's probably best ot do it by numbers, topping lift to keep the boom horizontal and all that.

 

[johnalison]

I can pull in most of the reefing line by hand on our single-line system, but this would leave a very slack clew and a sail shape that was unsuited to higher winds. I am not in the habit of tensioning the topping-lift while reefing on our current boat since the strut serves well enough to take the weight of the boom off the leach.

I may have mentioned previously a problem I had when replacing the topping-lift with finer cord. I checked that it was large enough to work in the winch but was caught out while approaching Ijmuiden in the dark. When the time came to lower the main, the new fine cord stuck itself into a small jamming cleat for the leach line and prevented the sail from coming down fully. I spent several entertaining minutes with our longest boat hook trying to unjam it in the pitching sea before it came down.

 

[john_morris_uk]

There is no way that I can pull a reef down without a winch. I also can't haul the boom up with the topping by hand. The boom is simply too heavy, so I do use the topping lift for sail trim in light airs, and if I need to raise the boom, I have to put a tail on the topping lift and take it to a winch too.

What goes for small, or light craft, does translate to bigger or older heavy vessels.

I’m not sure what point you are making or whether you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me? I was suggesting that a winch is definitely necessary and you can’t avoid it on a big boat and even on a medium sized boat in strong winds a winch helps get the sail reefed quickly and appropriately flat.

 

[Caraway]

There is no way that I can pull a reef down without a winch. I also can't haul the boom up with the topping by hand. The boom is simply too heavy, so I do use the topping lift for sail trim in light airs, and if I need to raise the boom, I have to put a tail on the topping lift and take it to a winch too.

What goes for small, or light craft, does translate to bigger or older heavy vessels.

But the OP is referring to a 22ft boat which came with a topping lift, from the manufacturer. So it is not a bigger or older heavy vessel.

 

[pyrojames]

I’m not sure what point you are making or whether you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me? I was suggesting that a winch is definitely necessary and you can’t avoid it on a big boat and even on a medium sized boat in strong winds a winch helps get the sail reefed quickly and appropriately flat.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I agree with you. Much of the thread has been about what you should or shouldn't do, without much consideration of the different needs of different vessels.

 

[Topcat47]

You can't scandalise the main without a topping lift and it's the easiest way to de-power it in extremis.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You can't scandalise the main without a topping lift and it's the easiest way to de-power it in extremis.

Is that the time when you discover your kicker isn’t readily accessible and it’s too short anyway?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Just out of interest, how many people have ever scandalized their mainsail? (Asks an engineless keelboat sailor, quite used to parking under sail). The thought of leaving it up to flog itself to death depresses me no end, why not just take it down?

 

[pyrojames]

Just out of interest, how many people have ever scandalized their mainsail? (Asks an engineless keelboat sailor, quite used to parking under sail). The thought of leaving it up to flog itself to death depresses me no end, why not just take it down?

I spent a year with a very unreliable engine at one stage. I spent most of the year sailing on and off my mooring. The mooring was on the NE side of the channel and in strong westerlies you wanted to make sure that you picked up the mooring before dropping the sail. Scandalising the main meant that drive was lost, but available very quickly if needed. Dropping and then rehoisting would mean sitting on the mud.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Just out of interest, how many people have ever scandalized their mainsail? (Asks an engineless keelboat sailor, quite used to parking under sail). The thought of leaving it up to flog itself to death depresses me no end, why not just take it down?

I have. Many times. It doesn’t have to flog itself to death.
On our current boat with a fully battened main and a good stack pack the main is so easy to drop and stow I don’t bother.

 

[Gixer]

This is really interesting reading.
I have a Z Spars solid kicker with a spring inside. It never occurred to me that with this arrangement I might not need the topping lift.

I'm trying to free up clutches on the deck, tempted to take the topping lift back to the mast and tie it off there as a emergency halyard, etc.

 

[flaming]

I have. Many times. It doesn’t have to flog itself to death.
On our current boat with a fully battened main and a good stack pack the main is so easy to drop and stow I don’t bother.

It's also true that scandalising a FB main is nothing like as effective. The alternative is to dump 1 or 2 feet of halyard, this removes the tension in the battens and just causes the sail to sit quietly. If you then need the drive back, just quickly grind up that last bit of halyard.

On the topic of topping lifts, I haven't sailed with one, racing or cruising, for well over a decade, probably more like 2. Ended up taking it off dad's boat when we realised that the only thing it was doing was chafing the leach of the main. Rigid kickers have completely done away with the need for them I think. We have one of the Barton things on the new boat, and it's fairly powerful, quite capable of the task of opening the leach in the light.

 

[TernVI]

Just out of interest, how many people have ever scandalized their mainsail? (Asks an engineless keelboat sailor, quite used to parking under sail). The thought of leaving it up to flog itself to death depresses me no end, why not just take it down?

I've done it regularly on one boat I crewed on, it was useful for mooring under sail in a lot of tide.
But it doesn't work if your kicker has limited range, which tends to be the case with most racing boats.
Doesn't help when the wind is opposing the tide.

It often seems to imply that an RYA istructor is loose and other vessels would be well advised to keep clear.....

 

[Stemar]

Is that the time when you discover your kicker isn’t readily accessible and it’s too short anyway?

Which is why I've lead both topping lift and kicker back to the cockpit, along with the halliard, lazyjacks and reefing lines. A downhaul for the main - just 3mm line - means I can drop the main all the way from the cockpit and hold it down, which is handy for those times when you don't want to leave the cockpit to sort it all out, either because everything's leaping around too much or, more likely in the Solent, you can't leave the helm that long.

 

[Allan]

That only works if your reef tack is on a tackle.
Most boats with ramshorns or equivalent at the gooseneck, if you tighten the reef clew first, the tack is pulled away from the ramshorn.
You should also check it's not abusing the sail near the luff, you might be putting a lot of load on one or two sliders, or the luff rope at the feeder.
As the boom drops to level, the foot will tighten.

However you do it, it's best to go through it all slow under no stress, checking out that nothing is being overstressed or abused.
If you haven't done that, it's probably best ot do it by numbers, topping lift to keep the boom horizontal and all that.

Yes I agree. I should have made it clear, each of our three reefs have two lines. As the boat is only 36 feet, I have no problem getting the foot tight by hand. The way the forward lines are led ensures the cringle takes the pressure, not a slide. I've done 4hour watches during which I went from no reef progressively to three and back to none, if everything is set up correctly, reefing should be simple.
I should say that we have both a solid kicker and a topping lift.
Allan

 

[Topcat47]

Just out of interest, how many people have ever scandalized their mainsail? (Asks an engineless keelboat sailor, quite used to parking under sail). The thought of leaving it up to flog itself to death depresses me no end, why not just take it down?

I do so quite often as it's a lot quicker depowering the sail rather than dropping it when single handing. You send much less time out of the cockpit.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I learned to sail, and later instructed, on Glenans 5.70s. Some of them had topping lifts. On the ones that did not, someone had to support the boom end during hoisting and reefing.
It was useful to be able to hoist the boom above head level when the main was down, on the ones that did have a t/l.
On all of the boats it was standard practice to lower the boom onto a dedicated pad on a cockpit seat when on the moorings. This helped to reduce unnecessary wear and tear on the gooseneck.

I forgot to add to this post that I have never heard of trimming the sail with the topping lift tensioned, but I have many times seen school boats sailing off the moorings with the T/L tight, with the crew wondering why they could not get the expected drive from the sail and not realising they had forgotten to release the T/L

 

[john_morris_uk]

I forgot to add to this post that I have never heard of trimming the sail with the topping lift tensioned, but I have many times seen school boats sailing off the moorings with the T/L tight, with the crew wondering why they could not get the expected drive from the sail and not realising they had forgotten to release the T/L

That's certainly my experience. However in big boats with heavy booms and in light airs, the weight of the boom takes all the twist out of the sail and the top of the sail is stalled while the lower part has laminar flow (or the closest you can achieve to laminar flow). Raising the boom opens the head of the sail and allows the sail to set properly at all heights.

 

[wombat88]

I sail a dinghy with a topping lift, used regularly to scandalise the main when running up onto the beach with the wind behind me. No I wouldn't leave it like that unless condions were calm and yes, I needed to make a longer line for the kicker.

 

[alahol2]

We fitted a Barton Boomstrut about 7 years ago when our topping lift parted and I failed miserably at re-reeving it. Given the choice I would much prefer to use the boomstrut. I have tried (and failed) several times to re-fit a topping lift because of its secondary use as a spare main halyard or as replacement for the boomstrut if it should fail.