How much longer can we keep low tax fuel?

[Stork_III]

. Southern Ireland has also continued to allow private boat owners to purchase marked fuel but has not come under the same pressure from the EU - why? 'cos they are expected to pay the full tax rate on all the fuel they purchase.

In Ireland boaters continue to buy green rebated fuel at the rebated price, but are required to make an annual declaration, to tax office, of how much fuel they have used and to pay the tax difference. The number of returns for 2009 (received in 2010) was 38 and for 2010 (received, near end of 2010 or in 2011), the figures was 41. Not many boats in Ireland then.

Interesting facts here. http://irishwaterwayshistory.com/rants/tax-dodging-boat-owners/

 

[maby]

So would the supplier also be done in being complicit in you attempting to avoid paying duty?

....

I guess you could argue that. Realistically speaking, HMRC really don't care provided we don't start putting the stuff into our cars. The volumes sold to the leisure boating industry are so small that it's a tiny blip on the taxation radar. They gave in to RYA pressure for a quiet life provided it didn't cost them anything. If the EU push the case, it will be impossible to defend the current solution as being compliant with EU directives and HMRC will have to give in and ban red diesel for us. We've already wasted the original derogation and we are still not addressing the problem. Sooner or later, Brussels is going to get heavy and we could find ourselves overnight running out of most sources of fuel.

 

[rbcoomer]

Your logic is a bit flawed. Travel is VAT exempt (with credit) throughout the EU. If you impose a fuel tax on airline fuel do you think airlines will buy fuel in the UK any more, or just fill up overseas? You cannot tax stuff that can move

As for it costing more to get to the capital by train than go further by plane, that has nothing to do with fuel tax. There is no tax on the airline fuel or VAT on the ticket, and there is no tax on the train fuel (however far you go back in the supply chain, as far as the coal fired power station if you want) nor any VAT on the train ticket. So the price difference has nothing to do with tax. (Road haulage is a different matter but not relevant to the plane vs trian comparison)

And just in the microeconomic world of boating, think carefully before saying cheap flights cause money to be spent abroad, There is a whole stack of folks who have bought Princess/Sunseekers/Fairlines/Sealines thus injecting money into UK economy, but they only do so IF they can sail their boats in the Med and get there on sensibly priced flights I accept of course that boating is a tiny sliver of the economy nationally, though not in Oundle, Poole and Plymouth

I was thinging more of duty than VAT - are you saying that railways and bus operators reclaim their fuel duty? Incidentally, I also understood that VAT was levied on both bus and train fares - is that wrong?

I can't really see planes flying around with tanks of fuel filled up elsewhere to save money. Surely it would just be too heavy to justify the price difference?
On another note I always wonder if air passenger duty has been imposed as way to charge the equivalent in fuel duty. Air passenger duty is based upon how far you are flying and ipso facto is equivalent to a fuel tax.

Duty would have to be applied EU-wide - much like they want to do to marine sector really which I why I see it as double standards! They won't because they fear the safety implications of airlines running on 'just enough fuel'...

 

[oldgit]

" There is a whole stack of folks who have bought Princess/Sunseekers/Fairlines/Sealines thus injecting money into UK economy"

Merely out of casual interest how many of those buyers will have paid 20 % VAT to HMRC before it is craned onto the lowloader ?

 

[rbcoomer]

" There is a whole stack of folks who have bought Princess/Sunseekers/Fairlines/Sealines thus injecting money into UK economy"

Merely out of casual interest how many of those buyers will have paid 20 % VAT to HMRC before it is craned onto the lowloader ?

Does that really matter? The jobs are probably worth more and they themselves result in PAYE, NI etc.

The duty on air fuel is different because the EU purport to be about equality and equal opportunity. It's hardly equal when you compare the tax burden on UK tourism vs Southern Europe (as an example) and when Flybe offered flights from Exeter to London City via Channel Islands, it was cheaper than a train to London! I'm not saying we should tax air travel, just that before the EU concerns itself with a few UK boat users getting a small discount on duty there are bigger inconsistencies! VAT is different because it's a sales tax and the buyers of the PrinFairSeekers are just like when you buy from outside the EU - we don't pay US sales tax for example...

 

[Latestarter1]

Indeed, though I still maintain that we would have been a lot more successful in defending it if it were not for the 60/40...

Your thought process is incorrect.

With the ending of EU Derogation ment quite simply that we SHOULD have mandated white diesel for leisure.

I was part on industry consultation and it was perfectly clear from discussions with retailers that there was NO appetite for two grades of fuel at the waterside, margins were already paper thin. Boating industry rightly contended that restricting available fuel outlets by as much as 80% to leisure boaters in some areas would cripple the industry.

The HMRC 60/40 split was a pragmatic approach which would allow leisure boaters to retain access to fueling points and at the same time harmonise the level of tax being collected with the rest of Europe, I.E totally meeting the spririt of European tax harmonisation if perhaps not the letter.

However the French were adamant that the very sensible position taken by HMRC was a fiddlers charter and judged us by their own standards, insisting red dyed fuel must be restricted to commercial vessels.I have no clue what alternative strategy could have been employed.

 

[oldgit]

"Does that really matter? "

Depends wether you consider £75.000 thousand pounds a mere trifle

 

[rbcoomer]

"Does that really matter? "

Depends wether you consider £75.000 thousand pounds a mere trifle

I don't, but I think the jobs - direct and indirect - are worth more. An extra £75K over the price of a similar vessel from another country could make or break a sale - assuming they have similar VAT rules, which I confess I have no knowledge of. (Not being in that market segment myself )

 

[PCUK]

Does this government really want to destroy the UK motor boat industry completely? The amount of red being burnt has probably dropped by half (guess) as many boats do a fraction of their previous hours.
Roll on the referendum - death to the EU and all its commissioners - Ahhhh, that's better!

 

[GrahamHR]

Does this government really want to destroy the UK motor boat industry completely? The amount of red being burnt has probably dropped by half (guess) as many boats do a fraction of their previous hours.
Roll on the referendum - death to the EU and all its commissioners - Ahhhh, that's better!

Do you really think they care one way or the other about the boating industry ? It's pretty small in relation to other tax revenue generators, In fact,I'd imagine all political parties would prefer to get more income from "affluent" boaters, by means of more duty on fuel.

 

[[2068]]

Do you really think they care one way or the other about the boating industry ? It's pretty small in relation to other tax revenue generators, In fact,I'd imagine all political parties would prefer to get more income from "affluent" boaters, by means of more duty on fuel.

The amounts are too small for them to care about, in terms of duty revenue. Getting Google to pay some UK tax would yield 1000x results. The main reason to resist is that elected MP's don't like being told what to do by Belgians MEP's with axes to grind, as a matter of principle. Us boaters and the RYA are just pawns in their power struggle.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I can't really see planes flying around with tanks of fuel filled up elsewhere to save money. Surely it would just be too heavy to justify the price difference?
On another note I always wonder if air passenger duty has been imposed as way to charge the equivalent in fuel duty. Air passenger duty is based upon how far you are flying and ipso facto is equivalent to a fuel tax.

Happens a lot - or used to at least. I can remember declaring a BAF F-16 u/s at RAF Bruggen once. According to the bowser's meters (which were regularly calibrated) I'd put in the same amount of fuel as the a/c was supposed to be able to carry. He and his mates had landed virtually empty to fill up with cheap fuel it turned out.

 

[Latestarter1]

Do you really think they care one way or the other about the boating industry ? It's pretty small in relation to other tax revenue generators, In fact,I'd imagine all political parties would prefer to get more income from "affluent" boaters, by means of more duty on fuel.

The views of posters totally disingenuous of Governments both past and present. Before the end of Derogation there was a huge amount industry wide consultation, and the actual revenue generated from fuel was never a part of the equation.

For example I saw figures which indicated that the marine leisure market in the West of Scotland would have been decimated due to absence refuelling locations and resulting damage to fragile local tourist economy.

Appears that most boaters are intent on investigating the fluff in their own navel than understanding the bigger picture.

The old DTI did a great job in collating data from all interested parties, of which the RYA were a small contributor.

 

[oldgit]

"The amount of red being burnt has probably dropped by half (guess)"

Personally am bit more optimistic about the world of boating,it has undergone many changes during my lifetime.When I was lad my river was populated either by old converted lifeboats with a perkins 4108 fitted or by die hard old salts sailing ancient old boats with the argument of the day being wether Carvel/DD or Clinker was the devils works.You had to actually enjoy boating and all the work that went with it.Red was 10p a gallon. and you started your perkins in the winter by lighting a diesel soaked rag on a bit of stick and holding it in front of the inlet manifold.
A retired naval type would have a beautiful motor launch and the £15.00 a week pension needed to run it.
As the country became more wealthy the river started to feature some rather posh white fibreglass motor cruisers some of which had TWO engines which could develop 150 hp each, boat would cost £30,000 .Fuel was still 10p a gallon
As time went on white glassfibre had taken over and 300hp per engine was the norm,fuel was err 10p gallon.
Over time,being on the water was no longer the aim but having a boat was (the bigger the better) and no point in having a boat if there was nobody to admire you on it,you most certainly did not want it to be difficult/dirty getting on boat.
The marina was invented and rows and rows of identikit plastic appear,all featuring 1000 hp green monsters.Fuel is 25p a litre.You will of course need to dress the part.Matching Musto stalks the pontoon.
Anybody sensitive to which way the wind was blowing would have seen that for whatever reason things were going to change,but the forums positively stuck their respective heads in the sand and hoped it would all go away.Amazingly it did not !
The days of buying a boat without wondering if you could afford to run it are gone.
The majority of us will have to cut our cloth accordingly and perhaps just perhaps the boat builders will start to produce a boat for the 21st century and the sort of boating we will mostly be doing in the future.
A tiny group of exclusive british builders relying on VAT differences to keep going will not be the way forward,the French with a wide range of boats covering all markets have probably got it right.

 

[Jim@sea]

How much does it cost to register a Fishing Boat.

 

[Latestarter1]

How much does it cost to register a Fishing Boat.

Depends on power of engine and MCA log #.............

 

[maby]

Does this government really want to destroy the UK motor boat industry completely? The amount of red being burnt has probably dropped by half (guess) as many boats do a fraction of their previous hours.
Roll on the referendum - death to the EU and all its commissioners - Ahhhh, that's better!

I think the government (actually both this one and the previous government) has gone to remarkable lengths to help the sailing community. It would have been easy to say to us "sorry lads, the game's up" but they have been fighting our side for several years. I've always thoght it was ultimately a lost cause - the EU will get its way unless we leave, and this is certainly far too small an issue on the international and commercial stage to have any noticable impact on any referendum...