How many water ballast trailer sailers are there?

[AngusMcDoon]

The only boat with internal ballast I can think of which stands up to the wind reasonably is the Red Fox.

If you are talking about sailing boats rather than yachts, as you mention 'boat', then you are still overlooking just about every wooden working boat since year dot, like the smack I posted above. All these were, as far as I know, internally ballasted and mostly very seaworthy.

I'm not sure which bit of the thread you mistakenly think I haven't read. Strange comment.

 

[Floyd Raser]

Yep it seems strange to me that the op is looking only at water ballasted for ease of launching.

I am not convinced that this is the major benefit. Surely the major benefit of water ballast is the lower trailing weight. So possibly no requirement for a decent 4*4 for towing.

However I found for ease of launching and recovery a decent 4*4 with a front mounted tow bar and solid extension bar to trailer worked really well on slippery slopes and sandy beaches.....

It also meant I had a boat (Trapper Ts 240) which gave me confidence that it wouldn't be blown flat on the water in 40 knot winds as it had a big lump of iron 1.7 meters down when lowered.

I think you're now trying to guess why I asked the question in the first place.

I noticed that size for size, WB boats seem to have more room in the cabin. I've seen the Parker 235; some lucky so and so has one at Rutland Water.
The Seal is my first boat. I hadn't been around boats much and it was a gamble, but a bit of fun. A bit of fun with a limited budget, for now.
Having spent more in the Seal and around other boats I am starting to change my mind. It's as simple as that: personal choice. I want more room in the cabin and not a permanent table/keelbox threatening my lower joints.
I have a Volvo XC90 and quite a few years towing experience so that part is not a problem.

But I started this thread because I really did want to know if there were more WB boats available.

 

[Floyd Raser]

Silly me, nobody has mentioned the best of them all. The Parker 235. Silly because they took over making the Seals!!, and because I used to live about a mile from their yard in Kirton outside Boston. You will need to save your pennies, but there is no better trailer sailer....its not water ballasted though, but so what, its a lovely boat.

Tim

Yes, I agree. I am a member of the Parker Seal Sailing Association and there two for sale currently: £18K and £23K. A bit much for a beginner.

I have looked at Dehler 25 again today and played around with the bunks. I suspected they did something special. The base and back rest are connect by levers and when you pull it forward with the handle at the front of the base, it levels up and the back rest drops flat, level with it to make a nice berth. Is yours the same? I think it's a brilliant idea and I'm surprised it wasn't in the promo video.

 

[Alfie168]

Yes, I agree. I am a member of the Parker Seal Sailing Association and there two for sale currently: £18K and £23K. A bit much for a beginner.

I have looked at Dehler 25 again today and played around with the bunks. I suspected they did something special. The base and back rest are connect by levers and when you pull it forward with the handle at the front of the base, it levels up and the back rest drops flat, level with it to make a nice berth. Is yours the same? I think it's a brilliant idea and I'm surprised it wasn't in the promo video.

Sadly not. With the smaller Dehler 22 the keel box takes up a lot of space floor to ceiling and you rather pour yourself into the bunk which has a removable full length backrest when used as a seat. Its somewhere between cramped and cosy. I've not seen the arrangement you mention on the 25 which has a bit more beam to play with. In theory mine sleeps four, but in reality two is more than enough.

When it came to the competition between looks/performance and accommodation...accommodation came second, but I'm quite happy and I sleep just about OK on board and I can boil a kettle and make a cuppa whilst still in my sleeping bag.

If the Parker 235 is off the £ scale then look for a Parker 21. In all honesty I'm not sure you'd get any more sailing pleasure than you do on your Seal, but all the Parkers are lovely in my eyes and I was sad beyond measure when they packed in. I used to work in the council houses of one or two of the employees and they were dreadfully upset even though they sort of realised there was nobody to drive the business forward any more. The original factory was sold off for housing and although they took on an industrial unit in Boston it all became very directionless and never recovered.

My first intro to Parker was sailing Parker Lark dinghies in about 1980 and they were so much better made than the John Baker blue decked boats that they may as well have been a different class. I loved them.

For a VERY user friendly family boat with loads of room (but no built in heads) The Pippin 20 (Also made in/near Boston) is another alternative. Its beautifully made and there were three or four in the boat park at Rutland Water. Its less ambitious in terms of sailing performance but makes up for that with rig simplicity, so you can get it from trailer to sailer far quicker than most. Its roominess is down to the lack of side decks. The hull moulding is top quality, and the rudder and other stuff made well and strongly. I swam out to one moored in Lulworth Cove last summer and had a chat with the owner. He had traded down from a 35 footer as he and his missus got older and he absolutely loved it for his day/overnight sailss out of Weymouth.

Tim

 

[Floyd Raser]

For a VERY user friendly family boat with loads of room (but no built in heads) The Pippin 20 (Also made in/near Boston) is another alternative. Its beautifully made and there were three or four in the boat park at Rutland Water. Its less ambitious in terms of sailing performance but makes up for that with rig simplicity, so you can get it from trailer to sailer far quicker than most. Its roominess is down to the lack of side decks. The hull moulding is top quality, and the rudder and other stuff made well and strongly. I swam out to one moored in Lulworth Cove last summer and had a chat with the owner. He had traded down from a 35 footer as he and his missus got older and he absolutely loved it for his day/overnight sailss out of Weymouth.

Tim

Agreed. I looked at the Pippin a few years ago at the Excel boatshow. Very impressed. They used to keep a demonstrator at Rutland and probably still do; I saw one there very recently.

 

[yachtorion]

Agreed. I looked at the Pippin a few years ago at the Excel boatshow. Very impressed. They used to keep a demonstrator at Rutland and probably still do; I saw one there very recently.

Sadly the Pippin is out of production now. I had a good look around one once - lovely boat. It couldn't keep up with my old Hurley 22 in stong winds and a nasty chop when it followed me out of harbour in Kirkudbright on way to Whitehaven - I think it was 9 hours to my 6 - but it got there in the end safe and sound.

Don't think it was water ballasted though.

http://www.pippin-yachts.com/

 

[Floyd Raser]

Sadly the Pippin is out of production now. I had a good look around one once - lovely boat. It couldn't keep up with my old Hurley 22 in stong winds and a nasty chop when it followed me out of harbour in Kirkudbright on way to Whitehaven - I think it was 9 hours to my 6 - but it got there in the end safe and sound.

Don't think it was water ballasted though.

http://www.pippin-yachts.com/

The whole business is up for grabs. I could do as Victor Kiam, "I was so impressed, I bought the company!"
Shame they couldn't make it pay.

 

[Southern Sailor]

I have a Young 780 which is a water ballasted 7.8 metre GOP trailer yacht designed by Jim Young in New Zealand.
Jim Young was a prolific designer and a keen racing sailor so even my boat which was designed for accommodation and low weight on the trailer is reasonably nimble - unlike a Macgregor for example.
(OTOH, I dont have a 50 hp motor and can't waterski behind my boat.)
The design is from an era when the family car was a 2 litre sedan or 2.4 if you were posh and the idea was to make a largish boat that could be trailed without needing a truck.
I have toyed with the idea of substituting lead for water and loading up the centreboard weight as well to increase stiffness, but probably wont make the investment.
I use a 12 volt mattress inflator to suck in or blow out the ballast water and being able to "blow all tanks" and reduce draught when going into lagoons for a night is quite cool.
I'd be surprised if any Young water ballast designs were in the UK, but the water ballast principle is entirely sound.
I have seen where some people on forums have tried to "prove" that water ballast doesn't work, but all they prove is their own ignorance of simple physics.
There is no question that for a performance monohull, a large lump of lead or better still, depleted uranium on the end of the keel is the best thing. Where i sail though, my boat will beat your fixed keel boat because i will be over the bar and gone hours before you can leave harbour.
Just shows all over again that all boat designs are a floating set of compromises.
Cheers

Hi John the Kiwi, would you be able to give me any more details about your 7.8 and what its like when the tanks are empty.

Im interested in things like how much does it weigh to tow?, How does it handel with empty tanks, will it plane under motor? Do you have any plans for the boat that give the rig size and layout etc? Thanks

 

[Seajet]

I have a lift keel boat, but she relies on ballast and form stability, not water.

It must be said, water ballast internal to the hull is very ineffective compared to traditional ballast keels ( apart from round the world racers which can pump the water side to side when tacking ) and is mostly useful to reduce weight for towing.

The only other boat with water ballast in the UK I can think of offhand is the B25.

Re getting in and out over harbour bars, my boat draws 2' keel up, 4'6" keel down; unless it's mill pond calm I'd have to be feeling brave or daft to chance hitting the bottom within a 2'6" difference if there are any waves at all - the great advantage with my lift keel is I can use half tide sheltered moorings in close rowing distance to the shore / club.

 

[John the kiwi]

Hi Southern Sailor
I will dig out the plans i have.
To answer your questions.
Design dry weight of the hull alone is 900 kg or thereabouts. I dont know the total weight on the trailer, but believe it to be less than 2 tonnes including trailer.
(I am actually going to try and weigh the boat and trailer this week.)
Water Ballast is meant to be 500 kg/500 litres, but i have not measured it.
I would not sail without ballast as it would then be possible to actually capsize the boat without it righting.
With ballast tank full the boat is tender but definitely self righting. During racing we have had some spectacular spinnaker broaches where the boat has been laid what seems like flat. Hang on and let fly the sheets! She rounds up and stands up without any further help and importantly doesnt ship any water into the cockpit.
The hull would plane under motor if you reinforced the transom and put a 40 HP or bigger motor on the back and left the tanks empty. But then you would have a McGregor and who wants that? 10 HP will push the boat at 6.5 knots and the weight of the motor doesnt compromise teh sailing ability too much. Sailing off the wind 8 to 9 knots is common.

Jim Young Trailer Yachts

 

[Southern Sailor]

Hi Southern Sailor
I will dig out the plans i have.
To answer your questions.
Design dry weight of the hull alone is 900 kg or thereabouts. I dont know the total weight on the trailer, but believe it to be less than 2 tonnes including trailer.
(I am actually going to try and weigh the boat and trailer this week.)
Water Ballast is meant to be 500 kg/500 litres, but i have not measured it.
I would not sail without ballast as it would then be possible to actually capsize the boat without it righting.
With ballast tank full the boat is tender but definitely self righting. During racing we have had some spectacular spinnaker broaches where the boat has been laid what seems like flat. Hang on and let fly the sheets! She rounds up and stands up without any further help and importantly doesnt ship any water into the cockpit.
The hull would plane under motor if you reinforced the transom and put a 40 HP or bigger motor on the back and left the tanks empty. But then you would have a McGregor and who wants that? 10 HP will push the boat at 6.5 knots and the weight of the motor doesnt compromise teh sailing ability too much. Sailing off the wind 8 to 9 knots is common.

Jim Young Trailer Yachts

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply.

I didnt expect to be able to sail the boat with out the ballast, I just wondered what it was like without. I guess like a big dinghy, it will tip over if you try.

It suprises me that it would be upto 2000kg on the trailer, but I guess that includes all the gear, outboard and so on. It would be interesting to know what you find out if you do manage to get it weighed. I guess they must be pretty heavy as there is one busy rotting away in a local boat park that I am interested in and it is on a double axle braked trailer and you wouldn't go to all that hassle if it was light weight.

Any plans you can dig out would be much appreciated. The one I have seen had a rotten transom and I suspect some rot in the bottom. Im really keen to try and find some details of how this should have been constructed so I have a better idea of what I might be letting myself in for if I try and buy the boat and repair it. Things like if the bottom of the hull is rotten, it it a case of replacing the outer ply sheet and re-fibreglassing, or is there a central timber beam/hog/keel that runs the full length of the boat that might also be rotten too. Similarly with how the transon is attached. Will it be possible to cut through the outer glass and fit a new plywood (I asume) transom, and then reglass, or is there alot more structure in behind the transom that is also likely to have rotted out with the years of sitting unloved.

With some plans I will have a better idea of what to look for when looking over the boat propperly (I have only seen it from the outside) and how much work might be involved in the repairs. This will also then tie into howmuch I might offer the current owner for the boat.

One other thing. It sounds like you have a system to empty the tanks using an air pump. Are you able to explain how this all works, it sounds very interesting.

Thanks

 

[Daydream believer]

I have a lift keel boat, but she relies on ballast and form stability, not water.

It must be said, water ballast internal to the hull is very ineffective compared to traditional ballast keels ( apart from round the world racers which can pump the water side to side when tacking ) and is mostly useful to reduce weight for towing.

The only other boat with water ballast in the UK I can think of offhand is the B25.

Re getting in and out over harbour bars, my boat draws 2' keel up, 4'6" keel down; unless it's mill pond calm I'd have to be feeling brave or daft to chance hitting the bottom within a 2'6" difference if there are any waves at all - the great advantage with my lift keel is I can use half tide sheltered moorings in close rowing distance to the shore / club.

Our club commodore used to tow his Anderson 22 to & from the club every year behind his Volvo 240. If you could find a leaky one you could have all the water ballast you wanted

 

[langstonelayabout]

Blimey! I've just had to look up "katabatic". It has to the word of the day for tomorrow; try and get it into conversations at work.

We used to do just this at a previous workplace. The word of the week went up on one of the whiteboards and was used daily by all within. Whilst most of us didn't have degrees, it definitely assisted our general level of edumacatiun.