How firm is an Offer

[salamicollie]

Friends have put an offer on a yacht through a brokers and have had a letter back confirming the owner has accepted at £34000 and paid 10% deposit. Subsequently it appears that the current owner is buying a new Ben through the brokers and this transaction has gone pear shaped and the owner is now demanding more for his old boat. It would seem the broker was using some of the margin on the new boat to get the agreed price.

So - is there any comeback, survey is good with no significant defect to use to negoiate. I guess my friends can walk away, but an way of enforcing the previous accepted offer as £500 is £500.

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[paulineb]

salamicollie .....

...is that sausagedog?

<hr width=100% size=1>Pxx

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.paulinebeddoes.co.uk/php-cgi/gallery>The Perils of Pauline in Pics</A>

 

[Observer]

Sounds like a contract has been made and the price should not vary - certainly not upwards and only downwards if survey defects are found.

Your friends should stick to their guns and insist the seller completes on the terms agreed. Possibly something in broker's letter to indicate otherwise but not likely as 10% deposit has been paid which indicates agreed sale and purchase.

Broker is seller's agent and has ostensible/implied authority to bind his principal (the seller) so should not be able to wriggle on that count.

(The literal response to your question is that an offer is "firm" (i.e. capable of being accepted) until it is withdrawn or expires (if time limit for acceptance specified). In this case, the offer was accepted so the contract is made.)

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[duncan]

I hope they do pursue, there are far to many people caught up in the purchase side of these 'negotiations, as witnessed on this forum from time to time.
If the seller has an issue, financial or otherwise, he should seek redress from his agent..........

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[salamicollie]

Thanks guys - yiou have confirmed what I thought. My friends are off to do battle, will let you know how it goes.

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[Trevor_swfyc]

Sounds like a try on to me, had a similar situation. Broker phoned telling me my offer had been accepted I had at the time not paid a deposit. Three days later I got another call saying the seller wanted another £500 and for me to visit the broker bring your wife he said. I said I will be visiting you but without my wife.
I told him straight my offer stands but I will withdraw it if he continues to demand more. He said but you do not want to loose the boat for the want of £500. My reponse do you want to loose the sale for £500 and went to walk away. I have the boat and paid what I offered, interestingly he did not refer to the seller.
The 500/34000 = 1.47% I doubt this would stop the sale from the sellers point of view.
Out of interest what does a broker charge to sell a boat is it a percentage?

Good luck to your friends.
Trevor


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[salamicollie]

i think the broker charges between 6% and 8%. the boat has now been readvertised as a private sale. dickies the broker does not know as yet the guy is trying to cut them out.

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[brianrunyard]

By law "an offer and an acceptance" forms a legal contract.

<hr width=100% size=1>Brian
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/brunyard

 

[david_e]

It sounds like; new boat purchase = free brokerage on own boat up until time of delivery then either boat is a p/ex or done on brokerage. As the new sale has turned turtle the broker wants his commission. Suspect seller is not overly concerned as he will end up without boat.

In reality, the deposit counts for not alot when push comes to shove, the wording on the contract/receipt will be important. If they want more or want to return the deposit they can do; all your friend can do is sue for damages, and as he hasn't got many or any, only the lawyers will benefit.



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[coliholic]

I'm pretty sure Haydn posted on this subject just a few weeks back but he was the seller and agreed a private sale for a boat only to find that the broker had already sold it. Ended up having to pay his private buyer compensation I think.

Have a look back through Haydn's posts (hlb in case you didn't know). Or maybe if he reads this he'll re tell the story; 'cos he's good at re telling stories.

Oh and in case you don't know how to look back through his posts, find any post with hlb's name on it. Click on his name and his profile will open and at the bottom right of the page, click on "show all user's posts" or something like that. It'll be in there amongst all the dross.




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[Trevor_swfyc]

The seller is now in dangerous ground, the broker acting on his behalf and instruction has found a buyer and holds the deposit from your friends the buyers.
The broker will want his cut from the sale which must have been agreed by all parties otherwise the deposit would not have been paid. Unless the deposit was clearly taken pending agreement of the offer.
Looking at this as it stands I would get my deposit back as its going nowhere with the seller allegably trying to avoid the broker fee. If your friends went to the seller as he possibly hopes, then both parties could be allegably conspiring to avoid the brokers fee.
This is a bad start to owning a boat and your friends have some problem which could only get worse, with plenty of boats about and not a queue of buyers the "give me my deposit back if unable to proceed" would be my next move.

Trevor




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[montezuma]

Outrageous! Bid and offer accepted; first part of the deal met: deposit paid. Breach of contract pure and simple, as described.

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[jfm]

If it's a normal form of contract then there is a binding contract at the agreed price. But if seller reneges the only remedy for buyer is damages, and alas the buyer's damages might be small. It's possible the seller thinks this and that's why he's doing what he's doing. Correct approach imho is to send a letter very carefully constructed to explain that in fact damages are considerable £££. Spell out that damages will include loss of use of boat (charter fees), time spent looking for another boat, etc. Say the right legal stuff (purpose of this letter is to put you on notice as to the damage we will suffer, and will pursue him for reimbursement etc). Then a formal letter before action. Then do actually sue the git. Dont just say you will, then dont. You cannot lose.

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[duncan]

Re: Spot on.....(nm)

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[salamicollie]

We still want to purchase the boat. But the seller is not willing to negotiate for any work done from the surveyors report, because he is hoping we will drop out, and he does not have to pay brokerage fee which he was getting free as a deal for buying a new boat. but as he is not buying his new boat he will have to pay dickies brokerage. The seller has advertised his boat as a private sale on ybw dated 28 feb. He trying to pull a fast one over the broker and ourselves. roll on monday morning when the broker finds out. know of any good arbitration lawers

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[Observer]

Hmm. The plot thickens.

If you/your friends wish to proceed with the purchase, you now have to coerce what looks like an unwillling seller who doesn't want to pay brokerage fees if he sells to you and will argue about every defect (if any) which the survey report discloses.

A practical conclusion is that you're better off not dealing with a 'scoundrel' who has already sought to renege on the bargain. You're arguably better off taking the return of your deposit and shopping elsewhere (I assume there's no difficulty with getting your money back?)

If the deal was a cracking bargain which is not likely repeatable, you could do as jfm suggests and sue for damages (or sue for "specific performance" [jfm comment?]). Bit more tricky if the survey does throw up defects which the seller refuses to accept.

IMO, probably best to get your money back. The seller's clearly a s**t so treat him accordingly. Wipe him off your feet and depart.



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[Bejasus]

Perhaps a clue as to the sellers identity may help aothers to avoid this character.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/h00>http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/h00</A>

 

[duncan]

Re: Hang on a bit...

If a survey throws up things, which the seller may not be aware off, and the buyer wishes to make a revised offer, then it is up to the seller to accept or decline - unless the original terms stated that he would fix regardless which I doubt.
It is up to the buyer in this case to either accept that he will have to resolve things within his offer if he wishes to proceed or pull out because of the survey results surely........
Clearly the seller is not going to continue to negotiate around the original price as he has shown that he would like to pull out completely - which a counter or lower offer would permit him to do.

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[Observer]

Depends on the form of contract ..

(if there is one). The RYA "standard form of contract for the sale and purchase of a second-hand yacht" requires (I'm doing this from memory as I don't have the contract to hand) seller to pay to repair defects identified in the survey OR accept a lower price (based on the cost of repairs). I think buyer has the option to pull out if there is major defect, although can't remember exactly how this is expressed. It's not open to the buyer to just decide to reduce the price arbitrarily.

If completion of the sale is expressed to be "subject to survey" with no further mechanism for price adjustment, it begs the question "what happens if defects are identified?". The offer by the seller has already been accepted so a contract at the offered and accepted price has been established. Therefore, the question of counter-offer or revised offer doesn't (or shouldn't) arise. The issue is "by how much is the agreed price to be adjusted?"

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[salamicollie]

Re: Depends on the form of contract ..

Standard YBDSA terms are being used - Purchaser has option to withdraw after survey if there are material defects or alternatively negotiate a revised price or the vedor can complete the repairs... which he is currently refusing.

I'll let you know how it goes


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