How does motorsailing work?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted User YDKXO
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AndieMac said:
Funny you should mentioned the cat option. A guy I spoke to who had lived aboard a very popular, locally built 38' sailing cat, but who also was delivering this companies new boats from their factory pretty much full time, was the first to mention the 80% motor thing, but have since read a number of similar accounts.
Cats don't point to windward very well and the engines were needed to not only maintain speed but also keep charge in batteries even if the wind was in the right direction.
Cats dont perform well with extra weight either, and with his families liveaboard requirements (weight and storage) he sold the yacht and bought a Nordhavn 43, which he is very pleased with.
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I suppose it all depends if you're going somewhere in a hurry. If I'm to be retired and tour around the reasonably sunny Med, I guess a few solar panels (technology should be able to yield more by then!) should be enough for my el.needs, and I definitely wont be in a hurry.

Can't you get 5-6knots on the sails with non-gale force winds on a 45ft cat?
That should do I guess...

on the other hand, I spend a couple of hours checking the drawings (plans/sections) on the N56MS and it's v.well thought and executed craft!

V.
 
virtuvas said:
I suppose it all depends if you're going somewhere in a hurry. If I'm to be retired and tour around the reasonably sunny Med, I guess a few solar panels (technology should be able to yield more by then!) should be enough for my el.needs, and I definitely wont be in a hurry.

Can't you get 5-6knots on the sails with non-gale force winds on a 45ft cat?
That should do I guess...

on the other hand, I spend a couple of hours checking the drawings (plans/sections) on the N56MS and it's v.well thought and executed craft!

V.
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You've still got a couple of decades to make your mind up anyway V :), a nice distraction from work.
 
The Nordhavn 56 is a proper motorsailer, designed to be such from the outset. A lot of money was spent on the design of the variable pitch propellor and transmission system. In reality it is designed to operate under motor continuously, the sails are there to increase fuel economy and therefore range.

Nordhavn have never made 'sailing' boats.

I would love any Nordhavn if I could afford the running costs.
 
I use my sails as much as possible, it saves me loads of fuel in the meddy, makes the boat far more comfortable, stopping or minimising rolling. I have the sails up almost all of the time. The reason for a motor sailer in the meddy? The wind is either too strong, too weak (a lot of the time), or in the wrong direction to do any passage making to any kind of deadline. Thats why I bought a motorsailer in the first place.
 
AndieMac said:
Jim Leishman, Dan Streech (PAE) and naval architect Al Mason designed and built their first 43' sailboat in 1976. They stopped sailing yacht production in 1988.

Nordhavn's homepage, click on History at the top.
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Er, Ok, but technically we are both correct.

PAE made sailboats before they made their first Nordhavn in 1988, a 46ft motorboat.
 
We sail most of the time, but usually on the East Coast rivers the wind is only favourable one way in the river. Passages are different and we motorsailed most if the time on our cat because we needed to be in Holland by a particular time. A motorsailer won't sail as well as a true sailer or motor quite as well as a true mobo, but we sail at 5knts average easily and motor at up to 8knts. Last time out there was only 10knts of wind and we put the genoa up only and drifted along at 3knts against a small tide, silent, peaceful and we were in no hurry. We have a full displacement hull and a 75hp Thornycroft. Personally I think we have some of the best of both worlds.
 
virtuvas said:
on the other hand, I spend a couple of hours checking the drawings (plans/sections) on the N56MS and it's v.well thought and executed craft!

V.
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You're right, it is well thought out but it does lose out in several key areas to a Nordhavn power boat. We looked on board a N56MS at their in house show recently and the saloon/pilot house is really quite small for the size of boat despite the boat having no side decks there. Also one of the key features of a Nordhavn for me is the fact that the pilot house is separated from the saloon which IMHO is essential for extended night passages and the N56MS doesn't have this of course. Obviously also there is no flybridge and deck space is limited due to the mast and rigging. I may be wrong but I've heard that the N56MS hasn't been a great sales success for Nordhavn and I see there are already a couple of relatively young models on the used market. Speaking personally, there are too many compromises on the N56MS to incorporate a sailing rig which the average owner might use for 10-20% of his cruising time
 
BartW said:
why's that ?
(just curiosity)
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Mainly because on night passages you need good night vision which is not compromised by light coming from the saloon or other parts of the boat. Also the helmsman's concentration should not be disturbed by activity going on in other parts of the boat
 
Deleted User said:
Mainly because on night passages you need good night vision which is not compromised by light coming from the saloon or other parts of the boat. Also the helmsman's concentration should not be disturbed by activity going on in other parts of the boat
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...so he/she can be left alone to helm in solidity and have a potentially leathal nap as well :rolleyes:

[sorry couldn't help it, yes you are right and I turn of salon and helm lights off as well, but this working/driving/helming alone in a smallish space has its negatives]

cheers

V.
 
AndieMac said:
The N56 will be stabilised anyway, like all Nords, so I imagine the sails will be raised if or when the wind is well aft of the beam.

I've heard experienced coastal delivery yacht skippers mention realistically the engine is running 80% of the time while on passage.
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a sail on a Nordhavn (apart from the wonderful 56MS) would be a steadying sail but would provide a bit of lift. As you correctly say all Nordhavns will have stabs or some description, actually not sure if new nordhavns come with a mast and sail as standard, the older ones all did but their stabilisers were probably the traditional trawler type and a steadying sail would be handy. If travelling long distance another 1/2 knot can be useful!

images
 
Firefly625 said:
a sail on a Nordhavn (apart from the wonderful 56MS) would be a steadying sail but would provide a bit of lift. As you correctly say all Nordhavns will have stabs or some description, actually not sure if new nordhavns come with a mast and sail as standard, the older ones all did but their stabilisers were probably the traditional trawler type and a steadying sail would be handy. If travelling long distance another 1/2 knot can be useful!

images
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Afaik James most/all of the older N46's like the one pictured (for sale in Turkey) had, or retro-fitted, active fin stabilising, and others like "Egret" also fitted paravanes as a back up.
It definitely gave them a commercial/fishing boat appearance (paravanes) though.

When I mentioned sails, it was referring to the MS56 :).

The half a knot extra would make up for the loss of speed from the stabs?
 
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Deleted User said:
Mainly because on night passages you need good night vision which is not compromised by light coming from the saloon or other parts of the boat. Also the helmsman's concentration should not be disturbed by activity going on in other parts of the boat
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Indeed, even the slightest light throws up an annoying reflection, especially on raked back windscreens. I selectively cover some lighted helm gauges with a towel if they become distracting.
 
Aye, windscreens raked forwards are so much better when it comes to reducing the reflected light - and they make the interior of the wheelhouse appear to be bigger, when compared to one which has the typical aft raked 'go-fast' (for aerodynamic efficiency?) windows.

Re the Nordhavn 46's, there is a photo on the Nordhavn website in the section re the 46 (now discontinued) showing a 46 with a basic ketch rig - http://www.nordhavn.com/46/overview.php4 - click on the photo in the bottom right hand corner.

And Nordhavn have just brought out a 52' Coastal Pilot that could give the traditional semi displacement boats some competition :
http://www.nordhavn.com/models/52_coastalpilot/drawings/
Looks very nice indeed - but I would not like to try and guess what the cost of a new one is.
 
Bajansailor said:
Aye, windscreens raked forwards are so much better when it comes to reducing the reflected light - and they make the interior of the wheelhouse appear to be bigger, when compared to one which has the typical aft raked 'go-fast' (for aerodynamic efficiency?) windows./QUOTE]

and a bit more shade (less heat) at the helm in very hot, sunny locations.
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Bajansailor said:
Aye, windscreens raked forwards are so much better when it comes to reducing the reflected light
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Yup, though actually the main structural reason behind them is the higher resiatance (AOTBE) to green water.
Which otoh is something which really matters only when crossing oceans.
For normal pleasure boating, most folks prefer a better looking boat, with the option of going a tad faster and outrun bad weather, than dealing with green water all over the place... :)
 
Variable pitch props seem to be the answer to running the engine alongside the sails.

We had Bruton props on the Broadblue cat and they added a bit of push even at low'ish revs when the boat was already sailing at beyond the speed the engines alone would have reached. The props seemed to pitch up/down until they were taking some of the strain. I can't remember whether they returned to offering the least resistance they could when the engines were off, I think they did.
 
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