How Do I Check Who Owns It/Is There Any Other Finance Interests

[Tranona]

The evidence will not be there if my continued argument is correct that if the Client account isnt formatted correctly then the courts/CPS could assume the money isnt clients money and it is Yacht Brokers money he is legally free to take out the account himself especially if at the time he only intend to borrow it for a few hours or it is money available to administrators which has perhaps happened recently.

I thought there were examples above , a Corniche or Turbo 36 among others ??

Yes, you are right that it COULD happen - but where is there any evidence that it DOES?

Nobody has come up with any real examples and I have never seen one reported in 30 odd years of reading the boating press. Not that things can't go unreported, but given the high profile of this issue you would think that somebody would pick it up.

 

[DAKA]

Yes, you are right that it COULD happen - but where is there any evidence that it DOES?

Nobody has come up with any real examples and I have never seen one reported in 30 odd years of reading the boating press. Not that things can't go unreported, but given the high profile of this issue you would think that somebody would pick it up.

I thought there were a few examples above, too long now to try to pick them out.
I see three issues

1) if it is unproven as 99.9% cases are* (see my post above) then it cant be reported.

2) we are English and just too reserved to open up about these issues, Gludy has my greatest respect for breaking his news but this is very unusual.

3) Even when legal cases are closed there is still the fear of libel threats, broken windows and more, my heart thumps each time I post about Dave Derritt and Bob Hardiman T/A DH Marine T/A Severn Yacht Brokers .


This forum is a very small cross section of the boating community, anyone who has been shafted by a Broker may well have given boating up anyway, you shouldnt expect a long list of bent brokers to be published here.

I know of several boating issues that have affected forum members that you would have expected to have been posted from near sinking s to premature engine failures but they do not get posted even when the engines are less than two years old.

* accepted that it could be 99.9% of a low number, I hope we are not talking about hundreds of cases each year but my personal perception of the issues is 250 individuals over a 20 year period encompassing new build rip offs, now you might laugh at such a petty few but I dont want to be one of them (again as I see legislation adding a few professional conduct clauses in too.)!

 

[Imperial One]

As you know I've bought and sold quite a few boats and I've often had to wait days and weeks for money to be paid out to me after a boat has been sold. In one particular case with a well known Thames broker, I was given the run around (the usual excuses 'computer broken', 'director on holiday' etc) and had to resort to involving a solicitor before I got paid out and that was the best part of a month after the buyer paid the broker.

Hi Mike,

It sounds like you certainly got mixed up with a 'bad and dying broker'.
I am guessing they have gone now anyway?
What a lot of old tosh to tell a client!
The money leaves the brokers Clients Account on day of completion as far as I am concerned.
It is the Sellers money, not the brokers, and should go to him by the fastest possible means.
If that means using a same day T/T then we always spend the £25 and do it by a T/T.

In fact we always hold onto the ships papers until the money has hit the sellers account. Only then do we give these to the new owner.

As you might guess, I am in full favour of naming and shaming those that give poor service, play fast and loose with Customers money or any other blatantly illegal activity.

Get the bad guys names out in the open and then the vast majority who behave properly will be easily identified by the boating fraternity.

Maybe someone will start a thread saying who the good brokers and boat dealers are based on actual dealings with them. .....................I am sure I have a letter somewhere from my Son saying how happy he was when I sold him a boat - Sorry, gave him my boat.

Mike.

 

[gjgm]

Wow, Daka, every month, you personally hear of someone falling to a boat purchase/sale scam ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hi Mike,

It sounds like you certainly got mixed up with a 'bad and dying broker'.
I am guessing they have gone now anyway?
D

Mike.

Actually you're right. The broker was a company not a million miles away from Windsor racecourse

 

[Imperial One]

Mike,

Ah, that one near the racecourse. Well done on getting the money out before the horse got shot!

Good luck with the F53, hope it all goes well for you.

Not too sure why anyone would de reg in Italy then re reg in USA of all places outside the EU.
Has the boat been on one of those lease back schemes that the Italians and some Germans are so keen on?
If so these schemes are being looked at very hard by the tax authorities so the question of valid docs re tax, ownership etc may be applicable, but I am sure you are on top of that anyway.

If there is anything you want to ask a second opinion of or just chat about, do feel free to call me or pm if you wish.

Mike.

 

[Tranona]

I thought there were a few examples above, too long now to try to pick them out.
I see three issues

1) if it is unproven as 99.9% cases are* (see my post above) then it cant be reported.

2) we are English and just too reserved to open up about these issues, Gludy has my greatest respect for breaking his news but this is very unusual.

3) Even when legal cases are closed there is still the fear of libel threats, broken windows and more, my heart thumps each time I post about Dave Derritt and Bob Hardiman T/A DH Marine T/A Severn Yacht Brokers .


This forum is a very small cross section of the boating community, anyone who has been shafted by a Broker may well have given boating up anyway, you shouldnt expect a long list of bent brokers to be published here.

I know of several boating issues that have affected forum members that you would have expected to have been posted from near sinking s to premature engine failures but they do not get posted even when the engines are less than two years old.

* accepted that it could be 99.9% of a low number, I hope we are not talking about hundreds of cases each year but my personal perception of the issues is 250 individuals over a 20 year period encompassing new build rip offs, now you might laugh at such a petty few but I dont want to be one of them (again as I see legislation adding a few professional conduct clauses in too.)!

Pete

You really are going off into a fantasy world now. I would be the first to agree with you if the "problem" was as rife as your perception - but it isn't! Even if you roll in the "new build ripoffs" (which incidentally is an entirely different issue from brokers client accounts) the numbers of cases is extremely small, although the major failures such as Westerly and BA Peters did affect a large number of people and involve considerable sums. However in the great big scheme of things the cases are tiny in comparison with the thousands of transactions involving hunndreds of millions of £s that take place successfully each year.

Of course there are disputes just as there are in any form of transaction, but in most there are two sides to the story and most get settled without going to court simply because the law is sufficiently clear for the parties to determine an acceptable solution. Most of the cases that do come to the courts do so, like Peters, because there is a lack of clarity about the way the law is applied in the specific circumstances. The role of the court here is to consider the case and make a judgement which then establishes that interpretation. Sometimes it also results in consideration of a change in the law to help in future cases. That is how our system works.

Once again, I challenge you or any other interested person to quote a real example of a case that involved a broker stealing money from a client account.

 

[DAKA]

Once again, I challenge you or any other interested person to quote a real example of a case that involved a broker stealing money from a client account.

My concerns that client money may be at risk because it is not held in strict statutory trust accounts is dismissed by you as nonsense.

We have recently seen a series of Marine company failures and private individuals loosing significant capital, however you dismiss these losses as irrelevant as the money was not contained in a correctly formatted client account, which strictly speaking stops us including these losses as evidence of 'stolen' money.

I hope you can understand my confusion.

gigm, no thats not what I meant or intended to convey, once a dodgy dealer decides to go they will take as many as 40 in one batch.

 

[Imperial One]

............. once a dodgy dealer decides to go they will take as many as 40 in one batch.

40 what?
Deals?
If any company has 40 deals going through at a time they are not going to go bust!

Sign up for your new boat now, last 30 places still available

 

[DAKA]

40 what?
Deals?
If any company has 40 deals going through at a time they are not going to go bust!

Sign up for your new boat now, last 30 places still available

The knowledge I based that comment on was from a friend who had been caught by a Broker as a builder failed, one boat had been sold several times to several different individuals.

This was in Wales, a fraction of the story was reported in the press.

Some boats were sold that did not even exist.
I am certain the details are included above in one of my posts, I have told it on the forum before.

Steel boats, sold on plan, stage payments, surveys, engines, nav equipment, ready for delivery but no sign of any completed boats and not much evidence of many part built.

Some boats sold were just a few sheets of steel welded together , no one really knew which sheets belonged to who.

Now I know this is not really related to my current 'clients account' crusade but it is why I feel the industry requires regulation, my friends money should not have been handed to the builder until the broker knew the build stage was completed, remember the broker said this one was ready for nav gear to be fitted but was in fact little more than a bare shell ready for fitting out.

Well you did ask !

May I add Mike in an edit,

I recognise that you are 'one of the good guys' quote after checking up on you
Now because you are so honest, crisp and clean you are naturally totally oblivious to how the dodgy guys carry on, but that doesnt mean they are not out there and able to freely extort money from unsuspecting individuals who believe all yacht Brokers are trustworthy just because YOU have acted responsibly in the past.

 

[Imperial One]

Daka,

Yes, I have heard of that scam before.
Perhaps it was a post from you that I saw it in, I cannot recall.

That's why I favour the HISWA Contract for my Dutch built boats, it is registered to the buyer from the day the first steel is cut and cannot be sold to anyone else. Subsequent invoices for stage payments are the same, the engines or whatever the payment is for are yours.

I am surprised that he BMF and RYA did not take my suggestion any further after the BAP debacle came out into the open.

It's a fact that the world is full of shall we say 'scallywags', perhaps as I have suggested elsewhere, it is time to list all of them?

Mike.

 

[Imperial One]

May I add Mike in an edit,

I recognise that you are 'one of the good guys' quote after checking up on you
Now because you are so honest, crisp and clean you are naturally totally oblivious to how the dodgy guys carry on, but that doesnt mean they are not out there and able to freely extort money from unsuspecting individuals who believe all yacht Brokers are trustworthy just because YOU have acted responsibly in the past.

Too kind Sir, too kind

 

[Tranona]

My concerns that client money may be at risk because it is not held in strict statutory trust accounts is dismissed by you as nonsense.

We have recently seen a series of Marine company failures and private individuals loosing significant capital, however you dismiss these losses as irrelevant as the money was not contained in a correctly formatted client account, which strictly speaking stops us including these losses as evidence of 'stolen' money.

I hope you can understand my confusion.

gigm, no thats not what I meant or intended to convey, once a dodgy dealer decides to go they will take as many as 40 in one batch.

I can understand your concern and confusion - but to be honest it is mostly of your own making. Many times I and others have explained the different types of transactions and the laws which govern them, but still as in this post you mix them up. Brokerage and client accounts are covered by the law of agency and trust respectively. Buying a new boat from a builder is covered by the law of contract, but may also if you are buying through an intermediary also involve agency and trust. Buying from a dealer by way of trade may also be covered by Consumer law.

Your second paragraph is, quite frankly gobbeldegook. When you are looking at disputes, failures, losses, criminal activity etc you need to get the facts of the case and apply the appropriate law. Rolling them all together is just not helpful.

You find that when you do break down the cases, my suggestion that each type is rare becomes obvious. As I have repeatedly asked, for example, show us a documented case of a broker stealing from a client account.

This is not to say that failures do not occur - as they do in any type of business, nor that there are not potential scams, nor that there are not disputes about products and services. However, the marine trade is no different from any other trade except perhaps that some people get emotionally involved or start dealing with sums of money that are out of the ordinary.

There is always room for improvement just as there is always opportunites for new problems in a complex and evolving business, but the mechanisms are there to adjust to changes as they occur.

So, stop worrying, use the freely available information to assess the risk in any transaction you enter into, and if you don't like it or don't understand it, seek advice or walk away. Nobody forces you to own a boat!

 

[duncan1859]

ripped off by a boat mortgage

New here so probably should have started a new thread. Aplologies if so, I'm sure someone will put me straight. I have fallen foul of the buying an unregistered boat only to discover it has an unsecured mortgage on it scam. Bought it in 2006, searched the small ships register, did an HPI check - nothing! In 2009, the Bank of Scotland tell me they have a mortgage on it and seize it. I tried to contest it by challenging their ownership with my search documents. The bank took the case to the high court in the strand. I sent my letter to the court but they won. That, however, ws not the end of it. The judge ruled that not only were the bank entitled to my boat, I am now also liable for all of the borowers debt! So I bought the boat for £17500, the previous owner had a mortgage on it for £22000 and his total debt currently stands at £27600 (which is now passed onto me plus the interest standing currently £5.81 per week too). The bank have started bankruptcy proceedings against me and so I have finally employed solicitors who although they feel it is grossly unfair, do not see how I can challenge a high court order. has this happened to anyone else out there? Duncan

 

[GTom]

Re: ripped off by a boat mortgage

New here so probably should have started a new thread. Aplologies if so, I'm sure someone will put me straight. I have fallen foul of the buying an unregistered boat only to discover it has an unsecured mortgage on it scam. Bought it in 2006, searched the small ships register, did an HPI check - nothing! In 2009, the Bank of Scotland tell me they have a mortgage on it and seize it. I tried to contest it by challenging their ownership with my search documents. The bank took the case to the high court in the strand. I sent my letter to the court but they won. That, however, ws not the end of it. The judge ruled that not only were the bank entitled to my boat, I am now also liable for all of the borowers debt! So I bought the boat for £17500, the previous owner had a mortgage on it for £22000 and his total debt currently stands at £27600 (which is now passed onto me plus the interest standing currently £5.81 per week too). The bank have started bankruptcy proceedings against me and so I have finally employed solicitors who although they feel it is grossly unfair, do not see how I can challenge a high court order. has this happened to anyone else out there? Duncan

Sorry to revive an ancient thread, I was educating myself on clear title topic. Any updates on it? Did you hire a professional for the HPI or how did you performed it? BTW sounds very weird to me that a bank loans the full value of the boat, true, we're past the 2008 credit shock now...

An SSR registration is a lower cost method of registration and is often used by owners who intend to travel overseas and need to prove registry in the UK. It is not possible to register a charge against a ship on SSR.

If someone has taken a personal loan to buy a boat, it cannot be secured against the boat. It may be secured against their home if taken as a second mortgage but it cannot legally be secured against the boat.
Therefore, it is perfectly possible that the seller may have outstanding finance which he raised to buy his boat but unless it is on a part one register it cannot be secured against the boat. When he sells the boat he is still liable for the payments on that loan and if he defaults, the loan company can not have any charge on the boat.

The Haddock's boat was on SSR yet mortgaged. Has the legislation changed since, if yes, when? (I suppose pre-2000 mortgages should be more or less closed by now)