How common is it to mis-sell.

[Yngmar]

The only things you can trust from a broker is the price and the photos (mostly - I've seen faults photoshopped away).

They do come in various degrees of honesty though. One at least admitted he hadn't actually seen the boat he was selling before inviting me aboard to discover a floating pit of horrors, and he apologized for it

But the stuff they do type into the listing is to be treated with extreme suspicion. Some information came wrong from the owner, some they googled but clicked on the wrong model, some they sniffed around the boat but couldn't tell a generator from a dive compressor and some is pure guesswork because the boat is in the water (so a shallow draft iron keel actually turned out to be a deep draft lead keel, much to our delight).

Determining the actual state of things is up to you and any surveyor you hired. And the latter usually starts their report with a few pages of disclaimers.

 

[Cathy*]

The only things you can trust from a broker is the price and the photos (mostly - I've seen faults photoshopped away

We viewed a boat in November which was advertised using library photo's. The broker, who hadn't seen the boat, was embarrassed by the state of it. It's still advertised using the same photo's. The one we viewed which involved a 4 hour drive each way was advertised using photos provided by the seller from the advert that he purchased on 2 years earlier. The clean, well maintained boat in the photo's was nothing like the one we viewed.

We moved house 3 yrs ago and I would put boat brokers and estate agents in the same dubious category. Car sales on the other hand do seem to be getting their act together as we've also just bought a 'new' car and the experience was surprisingly positive.

 

[Bobc]

It's no different with houses.

My daughter went to buy a house only for the survey to show up structural faults. When we approached the seller about it, they produced a structural survey which they had only recently had done, stating that all was ok (but it didn't cover the part of the building with the problems).

I turns out that the previous owner had died and the family had tried to sell it but failed because of this problem, so sold it onto a "we but any house" type company cheap (£100k cheap). They patched up the cracks and gave it a coat of paint and put it on the market at over £100k more hoping to hoodwink someone.

Once we had found it and the agent knew, the seller quickly changed agents, so we went and told the new agent, who ignored us.

It happens everywhere which is why we use professional surveyors and lawyers.

 

[scozzy]

Boat...house...car.... its all the same in Latin "caveat emptor"
Having said that 20 odd years ago my wife and I bought our first house on the toss of a coin so what do I know?

 

[JayDomK]

It's no different with houses.

My daughter went to buy a house only for the survey to show up structural faults. When we approached the seller about it, they produced a structural survey which they had only recently had done, stating that all was ok (but it didn't cover the part of the building with the problems).

I turns out that the previous owner had died and the family had tried to sell it but failed because of this problem, so sold it onto a "we but any house" type company cheap (£100k cheap). They patched up the cracks and gave it a coat of paint and put it on the market at over £100k more hoping to hoodwink someone.

Once we had found it and the agent knew, the seller quickly changed agents, so we went and told the new agent, who ignored us.

It happens everywhere which is why we use professional surveyors and lawyers.

And the older house is, the more problems there are with it. I guess if a house is more than 20 years old, it needs to be inspected very carefully. One of my friends wanted to buy a house, but the neighbors said there was a fire inside once, although the agent didn't say anything about it. My friend asked the owner to remove the drywall from the walls to see the wall. He did, and saw the burned wall

 

[Jim@sea]

I bought a boat 10 years ago which was advertised as a "Carbon Fibre" hull.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The only poor experience I have had with a broker was when I went to view a She 36 which had unfortunately turned into a She 31 on the day I traveled 200 miles to view it.

 

[steveeasy]

well I bought my current boat thru a broker. Seriously I quite enjoyed the experience. Friendly and jolly. Interesting to talk too and no bullshit. Its not their job to give you a full run down. not for the price region I was purchasing in. I was a bit miffed over inventory confusion but I wanted the boat.

Ive sold boats thru brokers and that has been ok as well. So Im not really anti broker now. I was but my view has changed somewhat. Its not like buying a car. they are not selling it, the seller is. The broker is an agent to facilitate the viewings, negotiations and sale including paperwork. If the inventory is incorrect the seller should tell the broker. the seller knows a lot more than the agent.

Steveeasy

 

[Cathy*]

We sold our first boat through a broker, who's still going, who didn't want to pass on our money. We chased several times and they transferred small amounts with the excuse that their bank wouldn't allow them to transfer more, until I said I was going to go and sit in their office until they'd paid us. One of the owners then said they'd had to use our money to pay for stock and I hit the roof. They then came up with the balance.

 

[Tranona]

We sold our first boat through a broker, who's still going, who didn't want to pass on our money. We chased several times and they transferred small amounts with the excuse that their bank wouldn't allow them to transfer more, until I said I was going to go and sit in their office until they'd paid us. One of the owners then said they'd had to use our money to pay for stock and I hit the roof. They then came up with the balance.

Something not right here. The broker has no right to use your money as he is (or should be) holding it in trust for you. This has been standard practice for any reputable broker for the last 15 years or more, and for most before then.

 

[Cathy*]

I know. This was about 12 years ago with a husband and wife outfit. I too had assumed our money would be in a separate account, they obviously thought they'd get away with it for a while.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I know. This was about 12 years ago with a husband and wife outfit. I too had assumed our money would be in a separate account, they obviously thought they'd get away with it for a while.

It's not only boat brokers, it must be 25 years ago I had been purchasing my insurance through a broker who supplied me with cover and policies from various companies over the years but the final year having "renewed" and sent my premium by mid April I hadn't received the policy document several phone calls and emails later I received at the beginning of May a photocopy of a policy from AXA. Being the untrusting cynical git that I am over a couple of weeks I managed to find out that they had indeed agreed to underwrite my insurance but the premium hadn't been sent so I wasn't covered by them. Further phone calls to the broker finally towards the end of May and a weeks cruise in the offing he answered the phone and came up with a story that he had sent the wrong policy and that he had arranged for HKJ to take on the policy and had forwarded the premium to them. Further phone calls to HKJ and indeed they had been in discussion about various customers being passed to them but no premiums had been sent so they were not my brokers or underwriters. So I exploded on the phone and then the story came out, the broker was known in the industry and was in personal financial difficulties. I said that I was going to go to the police it was at that point HKJ said they wpould issue me with a policy at no cost and attempt to get the money themselves which they did within a week and I stayed with them until I sold my last boat in 2012.

 

[Momac]

Do brokers not carry out a visual inspection and a search of boat history before marketing them,

Highly unlikely . Although they should check the vendor owns the boat and relevant documents are present.
Brokers are sales people. They may have some acquired knowledge but they may not necessarily be the experts that you might imagine.

 

[Sneaky Pete]

Highly unlikely . Although they should check the vendor owns the boat and relevant documents are present.
Brokers are sales people. They may have some acquired knowledge but they may not necessarily be the experts that you might imagine.

It's fair to say great condition to one person is not great condition another, these people are selling a product that any buyer would expect them to know what they are talking about even acquired knowledge, but there description which this broker wrote is not telling the truth and that is the part of mis-leading and mis-selling. A late august 2009 boat is not a 2010 boat as advertised, a recent service well that looked like 18 months or so ago.
I'm just disappointed in the broker for not being up front , but I'll stand by my opinion of them they are worse than used car sales people.

 

[steveeasy]

It's fair to say great condition to one person is not great condition another, these people are selling a product that any buyer would expect them to know what they are talking about even acquired knowledge, but there description which this broker wrote is not telling the truth and that is the part of mis-leading and mis-selling. A late august 2009 boat is not a 2010 boat as advertised, a recent service well that looked like 18 months or so ago.
I'm just disappointed in the broker for not being up front , but I'll stand by my opinion of them they are worse than used car sales people.

Sorry but your not being fair about some of this and splitting hairs.

the engine. the advert

YANMAR 3YM30 (29hp) DIESEL ENGINE
Cruising speed 6 knots approx.
Maximum speed 7 knots approx.
Engine hours run to 1695 as of January 2024
Last serviced 2023

That is what the advert says. there is no ref to just serviced unless you are saying the add has been changed. youve not said that yet. did you expect a completely serviced engine with no hours since service with not an ounce of rust on it with nearly 1700 hrs. it looks tidy and well kept.

Im glad im not Ancaster !! or let me put it another way, they might think your damaging their reputation here and it might come back to bite you.

Steveeasy

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Sorry but your not being fair about some of this and splitting hairs.

the engine. the advert

YANMAR 3YM30 (29hp) DIESEL ENGINE
Cruising speed 6 knots approx.
Maximum speed 7 knots approx.
Engine hours run to 1695 as of January 2024
Last serviced 2023

That is what the advert says. there is no ref to just serviced unless you are saying the add has been changed. youve not said that yet. did you expect a completely serviced engine with no hours since service with not an once of rust on it with nearly 1700 hrs. it looks tidy and well kept.

Im glad im not Ancaster !! or let me put it another way, they might think your damaging their reputation here and it might come back to bite you.

Steveeasy

For me it was no mention of the repair that is the telling point, Ancaster probably didn't know because the seller hadn't told them and probably hoped that it wouldn't be detected. If a surveyor found evidence of significant damage and subsequent repair that hadn't been previously disclosed let alone a poor repair it would set alarm bells ringing and I would almost certainly want to back out of the sale. If it had been disclosed before survey I would have wanted details of the damage and repair only then would I make the decision to go ahead or not.
I think Ancaster were probably innocent victims in this and the seller is the villain, personally if the repair is as bad as indicated and extensive then I think there is a case for a refund of lift expenses as the seller has not been honest and I would be pressing for the refund to the extent of a small claims court action.

 

[colind3782]

When I bought my boat it was through a Boatshed broker in Barcelona. I should state now that he is long retired and the current Boatshed Barcelona broker, Paul Griffiths, is great and has become a friend. When I queried the engine hours he said it had been overhauled 15 hours ago. Back then I didn't know any better but it didn't take me long to realise that it was a "rattle can overhaul". Still running ok but it takes a while to start from cold!

 

[steveeasy]

For me it was no mention of the repair that is the telling point, Ancaster probably didn't know because the seller hadn't told them and probably hoped that it wouldn't be detected. If a surveyor found evidence of significant damage and subsequent repair that hadn't been previously disclosed let alone a poor repair it would set alarm bells ringing and I would almost certainly want to back out of the sale. If it had been disclosed before survey I would have wanted details of the damage and repair only then would I make the decision to go ahead or not.
I think Ancaster were probably innocent victims in this and the seller is the villain, personally if the repair is as bad as indicated and extensive then I think there is a case for a refund of lift expenses as the seller has not been honest and I would be pressing for the refund to the extent of a small claims court action.

Yes

 

[Tranona]

It's fair to say great condition to one person is not great condition another, these people are selling a product that any buyer would expect them to know what they are talking about even acquired knowledge, but there description which this broker wrote is not telling the truth and that is the part of mis-leading and mis-selling. A late august 2009 boat is not a 2010 boat as advertised, a recent service well that looked like 18 months or so ago.
I'm just disappointed in the broker for not being up front , but I'll stand by my opinion of them they are worse than used car sales people.

It really is very difficult to even guess who was in the right or wrong without the facts - both , or rather all 3 sides of the story. Not sure if you have read jfm's post on your other thread, but it clearly states the role of the broker. He is not responsible for the boat - that is with the seller and the broker presents what the seller is offering. Of course he should do his best to ensure it is a true reflection of actual situation, but from what you say, the repair was carried out many years ago presumably to the satisfaction of the surveyor and insurer at the time as well as the seller because presumably he bought the boat in the knowledge of the repair. It is difficult on the face of it to see how the broker has failed in not including this in the advert. That is what the surveyor is for - to check that the boat is as described. Your surveyor presumably determined that the repair was not satisfactory and advised you to reject the boat. Your contract is with the seller NOT the broker and therefore any dispute about rejection is with the seller and the broker cannot return your deposit without instruction from the seller that he accepts your rejection. Contracts are 2 way things and you had agreed to buy the boat. You do not say whether the seller knew that the repair was unsatisfactory, but it does seem odd given the amount he has invested in the boat, so perhaps not surprising if he disputed the findings of your surveyor.

Buying a boat privately (even with the broker as intermediary) is governed by the law of contract NOT consumer law and your remedy is through that law. Your threat to take Ancasta to court is meaningless as you do not have a contract with them except as trustee for your deposit. You would only have a case against them if the seller accepted your rejection and Ancasta still held your deposit (because that would have broken the trust). The role of the broker in situations like this is to try and arrive at a compromise that hopefully allows the sale to proceed, but clearly there comes a point where this is not possible and he advises his client that it is best to draw a line and return the deposit.

I get concerned about these sorts of threads where one side of the story is presented and a firm publicly named - in this case a well regarded one. Buying complicated and expensive bits of kit like a boat, particularly a used one privately is almost inevitably a fraught process so it is unsurprising that from time to time there are disputes, but the law governing contracts is pretty robust and with goodwill on both sides and the help of the intermediary it should be possible to resolve issues that arise.

 

[wonkywinch]

I paid 10% which is the norm.

I bought our boat from a reputable dealer who didn't need a deposit.

Their ad appeared on Yachtworld on the Saturday, I spoke to them the same day about the history. Drove 600 miles to see the boat on Monday morning and made an offer there and then.

They specifically didn't want a deposit and kindly waited two weeks for the first available surveyors appointment I could get. No money changed hands until the survey was done and the purchase went ahead.