How close will your boat point.

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mocruising

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I have often wondered how close other boats will point. I remember four years ago when we fitted a new fully battened furling main and new genoa the boat's pointing ability improved and again its better in 25 kts plus app. when we use the gib as opposed to the genoa.

This is a heavy displacement 3/4 keel GRP cruising boat generally able to point 30-35 degrees off the wind, but your pinching 35-40 degrees comfortable.
 
Our optimum (Sun Legende 41 cruiser racer) in flat water is 28 degs apparent at 7kts. We can go as close as 22 degs with enough wind and flat water but the VMG to windward is no better. If we need to we will ease sheets and free off to 30-35 degs to power through any sea.

Our last boat was a W33 ketch and the optimum there was 35 degs apparent and that was with good sails and both main and mizzen fully battened.
 
I can usually make 0 degrees at 2knts at around 1000 RPM :D

Is this another my boat can do this better than yours post? :) :dons shield:
 
dunedin said:
Are these angles apparent wind angle, true wind angle or GPS tracks (ie taking account of leeway) ?
These seem much closer than our boat - yet we rarely find any cruisers climbing above us to windward
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These are apparent wind angles. The true wind angle and tacking angle will vary with different combinations of boatspeed windspeed and seastate but we tack through around 80 degs or a bit less. Not much of a similar size gets by to windward but we pass a lot on their uphill side. Most cruisers don't have the sheeting angle, hull shape or sails to do that, but then they might have a nice after fornicatorium.:)
 
Robin said:
These are apparent wind angles. The true wind angle and tacking angle will vary with different combinations of boatspeed windspeed and seastate but we tack through around 80 degs or a bit less. Not much of a similar size gets by to windward but we pass a lot on their uphill side. Most cruisers don't have the sheeting angle, hull shape or sails to do that, but then they might have a nice after fornicatorium.:)
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Surely it's the apparent wind angle that alters with differing wind speed and boat speed ? e.g. you point up in a puff and bear off a bit in a lull ? But anyway my First 435 gets very similar results to yours. 78-80 degree tack angle. My previous boat, a westerly Jouster got about 85 degrees and a bilge keeled Hurley 24 I used to have about 95 degrees !
 
blackdogsailing said:
Surely it's the apparent wind angle that alters with differing wind speed and boat speed ? e.g. you point up in a puff and bear off a bit in a lull ? But anyway my First 435 gets very similar results to yours. 78-80 degree tack angle. My previous boat, a westerly Jouster got about 85 degrees and a bilge keeled Hurley 24 I used to have about 95 degrees !
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Yes it is the apparent wind (speed and angle) that varies in gusts and lulls when true windspeed and boatspeed change, but in this case you are probably helming to keep the apparent wind angle constant at the optimum angle. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what I mean but with the (apparent) wind angle kept on the optimum the true wind angle will change but isn't so easily seen without two different displays, one on apparent one on true. We can switch our instruments between true and apparent or could look at the 'other' option using a multi repeater but rarely do of course because apparent is always the king!

The other key factor too of course is leeway because pointing angles and tack angles are just that but the real VMG to windward includes the effect of leeway. This is why bilge keelers and some cruisers sometimes think they can go upwind as well as more racy craft, simply because they can point in a similar direction, but the reality is different where the course made good (leeway included) is nowhere near as good.
 
The trouble with a simplistic sailing routine such as "keep her pointing to 30 degrees apparent" is that it doesn't take into account changing conditions. In smooth water and a steady wind it's fine, but in real seas the boat only has to strike a wave and have half a knot taken off the speed through the water and what happens? The apparent wind moves aft and the helmsman is tempted to put the helm down, thus going slower still and stalling the keel. Just as in steering to a compass course, a longer term view is needed and course alterations only made when taking into account the boat speed.

Try sailing close to wind with a VMG meter and you will find that getting into the groove requires great delicacy and may be quite uninstinctive.
 
johnalison said:
The trouble with a simplistic sailing routine such as "keep her pointing to 30 degrees apparent" is that it doesn't take into account changing conditions. In smooth water and a steady wind it's fine, but in real seas the boat only has to strike a wave and have half a knot taken off the speed through the water and what happens? The apparent wind moves aft and the helmsman is tempted to put the helm down, thus going slower still and stalling the keel. Just as in steering to a compass course, a longer term view is needed and course alterations only made when taking into account the boat speed.

Try sailing close to wind with a VMG meter and you will find that getting into the groove requires great delicacy and may be quite uninstinctive.
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I wasn't suggesting at all steering by the numbers but simply trying to make a like for like comparison in answering a post, by fixing one of the variables. Probably my poor explanatory powers!

Sailing to a VMG meter would be dumb, because pinching up will show a dramatic improvement in VMG until the instrument's averaging delays and boatspeed react to the change. VMG meters are fine for checking at different apparent angles with the boat settled on course for the seastate experienced, but not for trying to steer by. Feel is still the order of the day and why good helms win over ordinary ones, even with fancy instruments.
 
I didn't intend to suggest that anyone was here recommending steering by wind angle, though I have come across people who do. Nor would I suggest steering solely by VMG; in fact using a VMG meter is very hard as you have to watch the meter as well as the wind angle, boat speed and maybe the compass, all at the same time. The seat of the pants is certainly simpler but even after, ahem, rather a lot of years I still find my relatively newly-acquired instruments helpful.
One more tip - never try to align your boat with another boat, they may be sailing badly, be experiencing a different current or different wind, or even motor-sailing.
 
johnalison said:
I didn't intend to suggest that anyone was here recommending steering by wind angle, though I have come across people who do. Nor would I suggest steering solely by VMG; in fact using a VMG meter is very hard as you have to watch the meter as well as the wind angle, boat speed and maybe the compass, all at the same time. The seat of the pants is certainly simpler but even after, ahem, rather a lot of years I still find my relatively newly-acquired instruments helpful.
One more tip - never try to align your boat with another boat, they may be sailing badly, be experiencing a different current or different wind, or even motor-sailing.
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Whenever my partner and I are trying to get the best out of the boat to windward she helms ! I am completely pants at it in comparison ! She occassionally uses the instruments to check what she is doing but her eyes are glued to the tell-tails with quick glances at boat speed. One of the best 'seat of the pants' helmsman ( or helmsperson for the pc brigade ) I know. Completely agree with you about watching other boats. Just get to know your own boat and what it should be doing in certain conditions.

Chris
 
jason -and the arguenauts said:
I reckon this thread is turning into a willy waving contest with some fairly unlikely claims.
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I do not think anyone has made any 'unlikely' claims at all. a tack angle of 80 degrees for a cruiser/racer is nothing exceptional. similarly an apparent wind angle of less than 30 degs. is very easily obtained. I have no idea what sort of boat you sail on but believe me there are lots out there who can out perform mine ! ( has anyone sailed on a First 40.7 btw ? They seem very close winded ).

Chris
 
That is the right answer !

Re Seanick,

Yessir, set 'er up and let 'er fly. What people claim and what actually happens against a buildin' headsea is like putting politicians up agin a windmachine...
 
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