How can the individual have respect for so called "Drug Enforcement"..

Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

The judgemental punishment stuff has been tried, and tried.
Waste of money. There is a difference with drink drivers-the average person doesn't want to endanger other people deliberately. It's also quite easy to get caught in general for those who aren't bothered as much about other people's safety.

Frequently drug users aren't that concerned about their safety etc and it's easier to be undetected. Besides isn't it about time we tried something other than punishment? Like punishment is a genuine answer to many of these kinds of issues?

If punishment itself was that useful, the cane would have stayed in use and there would be clear evidence that it worked. Society doesn't seem to learn very quickly. Right wing views are still a bit rigid on these matters. Some things punishment is the only answer for sure. Not drug use however. The right tool for the right job-and we need better tools.
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

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the proponents of the drugs war in our government here in Guernsey have everybody in some sort of moralistic bind whereby they cannot express such an opinion without being accused of being pro-drugs. Consequently this expensive and ineffective nonsense just carries on.

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The moralists are everywhere /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif- I consider myself a pragmatist.

The good news (??) is that we don't have a lot of the "Drug crime" that affects non-users that seems to be more normal in the UK, cos despite the drug prices (apparently!) being so much higher locally than in the UK essentially folk CAN afford their drugs. Obvioulsy not nil crime wise, but a lot less than I would expect given the scale of the "problem" / usage.

IME when folk can afford drugs from their normal working earnings they tend to prefer to do this. I HAVE worked with folk who did have drug habits - some of them would be termed "quite serious", but still capable of holding down jobs - at least as well as the "Pissheads" /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Drug prices far higher than the UK??, it's the "shipping costs"........same as for everything else, as all our Ex Tourists long ago discovered. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif (But that is getting onto thread drift!)


Over here our Jail is overflowing - of course the unkind may suggest that it is only fair we get to pay for all this, in exchange for making money doing the offshore banking for the more senior drug dealers - alledgedly /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just to make clear that I <u>am</u> against folk selling drugs for a profit for the simple reason that I do consider folk profiting from the misery of others to be a bunch of c#nts. IMO it's the Gov't's job to do that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Of course the line between dealer and user only usually seperates the higher up the tree folk get.............
 
So to you, the £Many thousands of damage is irrelevant?

It actually cost the owner a great deal of money to get his boat put right. I just cannot, as a capitalist understand your attitude to this event.

Steve Cronin
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcement\"..

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I wasn't there so cannot comment.

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But you ARE commenting and you seem to be hinting that they in some way brought this upon themselves.

When it happens to YOU perhaps you will return to this forum and proclaim to us all that you have just become a martyr to law and order!

Steve Cronin
 
It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of drug enforcement

I do not think this has anything to do with drug enforcement, but may just be a case of officers having abused their powers. If that is the case I am sure the French courts will eventually hand out compensation to the owner.

Has anybody seen any photos of the alleged damage? Did the owner contact the local police station?

What I refuse to accept though is this attitude of somehow trying to turn this into a Britain Vs France argument. Customs & police have been known to abuse their powers in every country in the world, the UK being no exception.
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

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The judgemental punishment stuff has been tried, and tried...

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Not on drug use. The middle class trendies pushed it out the way about thirty years ago and the attitude has got softer and softer as the problem has got worse and worse. We now even pay people to take drugs in benefits as they have made themselves unfit to work.

There are still people who don't take drugs because it is illegal. Legalise it and even more will become users (and the point is never put across that legalising doesn't mean it will be free). Increase the penalties (along with enforcement and conviction rate) and use will drop.

Cigarettes already keep many poorer people poor. Drugs (legalised) will create more poor people without any desire to improve their situation and will re-establish a huge under class who will contribute even less than they do now and drain huge resources from society.
 
Re: It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of drug enforcement

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What I refuse to accept though is this attitude of somehow trying to turn this into a Britain Vs France argument.

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I'm not sure anyone has, certainly not the broad thrust of the combined posts here.
 
Re: It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of drug enforcement

bloody french give them a navy and they think they're god.. there you go
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcement\"..

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But you ARE commenting and you seem to be hinting that they in some way brought this upon themselves.

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Not at all - as I said I wasn't there but merely recalling some discussion from a previous thread. Right or wrong, I know not
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcement\"..

Story 1.
Years ago I delivered a yacht to Ostend and then came back foot passenger to Dover. It was in the height of summer so I was only wearing a tee shirt and jeans etc and being a smoker I had my fags in the top pocket of my tee shirt. I was one of the first off and as I passed the customs man he obviously "clocked" me and decided to pull me over for a check - at that time they (the customs) used to show you a printed card with your duty free allowance on and at the same time ask you did you have anything to declare. Well, I said no I had nothing at all - he asked me for a second time did I have anything etc - I said no.

He asked me to put my bag on the counter and again asked me if I had any duty free and what was I doing. I said I had just delivered a yacht to Ostend and was returning home.

All the time this is going on the whole world and his wife were walking past loaded down with duty free bags.

He had a good rummage through my bag and found nothing - by now most passengers had passed by.

He said to me that he had stopped me because he'd spotted my fags in my top pocket and was sure I should have bought more on the ship.

My answer was "I'm sorry but I would have bought duty free fags but I just didn't have the cash on me" - his face dropped and I went on my way.

Just goes to show that their "noses" aren't always right /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Story 2
I launched my fishing boat off the N. Foreland and was fishing in Margate Roads. When I arrived there was nothing in sight but during the course of the day various commercial vessels came in and anchored all around us - we continued to fish.

Suddenly a rib appeared with HM Customs stamped all over the side and 4 hairy guys all dressed up in the normal Polar gear - it was summertime.

Me and my mate were sitting in the boat with 2 rods a piece fishing!

From about 50' they asked "what are you doing"?

I immediately thought "is this 20 questions - Do they need a clue"?

I shouted "fishing, why what do you thing I was doing"

That went down like a lead balloon - no sense of humour these guys.

They said "we've been watching you on radar and noted that you are in the middle of all these commercial ships" - I noted that their rib didn't have rader capability and wondered where the radar ship was.

I replied that I was here first and that the commercials had arrived later and as it happened had effed up my fishing.

"Can we come alongside"

Be my guest.

After being rammed twice and they still weren't "alongside" I shouted "fer chrisake are you trying to board me or sink me"

I have no idea what happened on board their boat next, but they said "sorry to have bothered you sir" and disappeared off and boarded one of the commercial vessels.

Customs men - don't you just luv'em.

Story 3
Back in the days when you had to fill out a 1328 form if you intended to go "foriegn" we decided (along with a whole load of other people) to do a bank holiday trip to France - unfortunately the weather turned bad and we all stayed "local" and in my case this was in the Medway - but because so many 1328's had been lodged HMC&E had decided to do a "raid" on returning boats - having never left the Medway we were returning to our mooring when we we "approached" by a customs launch asking if they could "board" us. Well it just so happens that a friend of mine (at that time) drove the customs launch and we were to be boroaded by him - he jumped aboard and said "I need a beer" - we duly complied and that was the end of it. That day the customs boarded dozens of boats, none of which had actually left UK waters.

Peter.
 
Re: It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of drug enforcement

It certainly isn't My intention of turning this into a "...Britain Vs france argument" which is why I referred to customs in general. I was boarded several years ago by armed french customs in international waters north of Cherbourg after being overflown by a videoing helicopter. On that occassion they just had a look around and satisfied thast we were genuine left. We had a drink and a discussion of the relative merits of Leicester Tigers and Stade with one of them in Cherbourg later. However, the situation is now far more serious as my neighbour who with his wife was subjected to an outrageous ordeal in Camaret by being marooned to an isolation pontoon will tell you. They were subjected to regular rumblings at all hours with dogs because they had refused to pay a grossly inflated tow fee by officers moonlighting with the customs boat and only allowed to go ashore when their insurers had agreed to pay a lesser amount to the private account of one of them. The second incident with the HR was related to me by one of the crew who's behaviour I would respect a few weeks after it had happened.

The issue here is surely that if authorities wish to continue to enjoy the respect and co-operation of the yachting public, then they need to perform regular and essential screening operations with a higher level of consideration for property, ensure that damage is avoided or kept to minimal levels and where it is unavoidable, recompense innocent owners promptly.

Steve Cronin
 
Re: It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of drug enforcement

Perhaps a couple of changes?

If a yacht is damaged when being examined then, if nothing is found, Customs must arrange and pay for repairs within a legally enforceable specified (short) time. This should cut down on speculative examinations as repair costs will be high...

Drug users should be made out as social pariahs in exactly the way that the chattering classes have made those opposed to homosexuality, in favour of organised religion and so forth to be social pariahs.

Who knows, it might work:-)
 
Re: It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of drug enforcement

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Drug users should be made out as social pariahs in exactly the way that the chattering classes have made those opposed to homosexuality, in favour of organised religion and so forth to be social pariahs.



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Oh Good! We on to Homophobes and God Botherers now, do I sense thread drift.
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

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The judgmental punishment stuff has been tried, and tried...

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Not on drug use. The middle class trendies pushed it out the way about thirty years ago and the attitude has got softer and softer as the problem has got worse and worse. We now even pay people to take drugs in benefits as they have made themselves unfit to work.

There are still people who don't take drugs because it is illegal. Legalise it and even more will become users (and the point is never put across that legalising doesn't mean it will be free). Increase the penalties (along with enforcement and conviction rate) and use will drop.

Cigarettes already keep many poorer people poor. Drugs (legalised) will create more poor people without any desire to improve their situation and will re-establish a huge under class who will contribute even less than they do now and drain huge resources from society.

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Weeelll, I think there's a mix in there. Be judgmental to a much greater degree on pushers and smugglers, we could try the death sentence like in the Far East, and still provide a legal clean source for the users. Smokers provide huge revenues for the Government so you could argue their habit is cost neutral, all I would like to see would be the criminals removed from the game and the same cost benefit for users created through the tax regime.

At the moment the criminals get all the cash, we pick up all the bills and lose our liberties, and the trade goes on unaffected by any attempts to curtail it.
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

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... all I would like to see would be the criminals removed from the game and the same cost benefit for users created through the tax regime...

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They can't do that with alcohol and cigarettes at the moment, I don't have much faith they could do it with legalised drugs.
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

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we could try the death sentence like in the Far East

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The legal way doesn't deter them either, cos' no one ever thinks they will get caught.

But the (recently) ex Prime Minister of Thailand had a more direct approach to using the Death Penalty in his War on Drugs over the last few years. I am reliably told that it did drive the price of drugs way up, which in my book is the most reliable indicator of "progress".

I am not sure if what were effectively Death Squads is the way I would want to go in this country, especially as (unsurprisingly) more than a few of the Late "drug dealers" were perhaps not quite as much as drug dealers as the name would suggest and of course it was also used as a good way of reducing the competition - especially when those involved wore the uniforms............

They are not all happy smiley people out there.
 
Re: How can the individual have respect for so called \"Drug Enforcemen

Who does pay if Customs Wreck your boat? Will your insurance company pay and persue the authorities?
 
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