Horseshoe Liferings - decoration?

[oldvarnish]

Have horseshoe liferings had their day? I notice fewer newer yachts are carrying them and are going instead for one of quite a large range of MOB, inflatable, automatic etc. devices mounted on the pushpit.

If safety is the only criteria (let's forget cost) what's a horseshoe got that the others haven't?

 

[reginaldon]

Have horseshoe liferings had their day? I notice fewer newer yachts are carrying them and are going instead for one of quite a large range of MOB, inflatable, automatic etc. devices mounted on the pushpit.

If safety is the only criteria (let's forget cost) what's a horseshoe got that the others haven't?

You can't, for a lot of people, although with the advance of prosperity, far fewer nowadays fall into that bracket.

 

[Ruffles]

I notice a lot of peeps carry only one self inflating thingy. I've always caried two lifebuoys on the assumption that the first is thrown inaccurately in haste.

The throwing lines are worth having. If only for a bit of fun!

 

[Kelpie]

When I got my boat there were two horseshoes on the pushpit. And bugger all room to climb aboard as a result. I removed one so that climbing up from the dinghy is now much easier- I think, on balance, this is a safety improvement...

 

[Ruffles]

Our flagpole is next to the backstay. It's very easy to grab the pole thinking you're grabbing the backstay. So I'm now an expert at splicing timber. My swimming is improving too.

 

[Boomshanka]

Okay, bit windy in the South Atlantic, but here's how a horseshoe acts when used 'in anger': http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8383946.stm

 

[TamarMike]

Have horseshoe liferings had their day?

Oh dear. I have only upgraded to horseshoe ones from circular ones in the last few years, thinking I was getting really up to date!

 

[Lady Campanula]

I've always held they were just about functionally useless. As Boomshanka's vid-clip shows clearly, you need to be close enough to place the horseshoe lifering into the hands of the 'casualty' and, if you're close enough for that, you're close enough to pass a lifting strop or clip on another personal lifeline, so the 'casualty' is once again secured to the boat.

In fact, they're worse than useless, for they create a false sense of security in crew members who haven't thought through the process seen in the above vid-clip. What's more, they cost money that could be better spent on kit that actually does work - such as a Lifesling and/or a Balcan throwing line.

 

[Tradewinds]

Have horseshoe liferings had their day? I notice fewer newer yachts are carrying them and are going instead for one of quite a large range of MOB, inflatable, automatic etc. devices mounted on the pushpit.

If safety is the only criteria (let's forget cost) what's a horseshoe got that the others haven't?

I have had horseshoe liferings on every yacht I've had - it's perfect for putting your name discreetly on the side of the yacht instead of it being emblazoned on dodgers. It also holds the fluorescent floating light - the one where the bulb always fills with water even though you grease the o-ring every year. My light (no longer fluorescent) disintegrated in my hands at the end of last season it was so UV damaged - no comfort there .

I also have a 18 year old Lifesling - yet to be used in anger.

I think you should have all these devices & the others too - she won't look like a proper ocean-going yacht without them .

 

[prv]

As I understand it, the point of a horseshoe is that you can put it under your arms and behind your back, giving you support without having to hold onto anything.

Well, um, I can't.

I'm not a small bloke, but neither am I unusually large. The horseshoe that came with Kindred Spirit hasn't a hope in hell of fitting round me like that. It just about went round sideways, with one "arm" in front, one behind, and the curve of the horseshoe under one of my arms. But in getting it there the foam inside snapped into two halves, it was still squeezing my chest, and I was only wearing a T-shirt. Add a woolly jumper, smock and oilies, and even standing on the boat I probably couldn't get it round myself, let alone in the water.

I don't think KS's horseshoe is a special midget one.

One has to wonder how much point there really is in a smallish float that you can (must!) hold onto?

I have since fitted a JonBuoy recovery module. The original impetus was for its compact and discrete stowage, as opposed to dangling all kinds of orange foam toys round the stern of a small classic-looking yacht, but it's also good to know that if someone ends up in the water with it nearby, it will be of real use to them.

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Life-belts are Markers Not Recovery Devices

The horseshoe life-belt was very much a safety device of the times. They preceded the modern lifejacket with no inherent buoyancy and in a time when most people did not use lifejackets. They were certainly an improvement on the life-ring.

I believe you still need a floatation device that can be thrown to a person in the water that at least allows them a chance to swim to it. This device should not be attached to the boat for the obvious reason that if you drift to far to heave a line, at least there is something in the vicinity to aid floatation.

To be honest, I have always thought of life-belts to be marker devices as opposed to recovery devices; immediately deploy as soon as you have a MOB.

However, today lifejacket wearing and plotters with MOB function are common but this isn't a reason not to deploy a floatation device immediately. In the video above it took them 17 minutes to recover the MOB. If your life-jacket fails to function you may be glad of the horseshoe.

 

[ferrymaniom]

Okay, bit windy in the South Atlantic, but here's how a horseshoe acts when used 'in anger': http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8383946.stm

Thanks for the pointer. Interesting. Time to look again at that particular piece of equipment, I think.

I also concur wth the thing not being large enough for gentlemen over a certain girth.

We're very much potterers and fair weather sailors, but a man in the water is a problem whenever and where ever it happens.

 

[TradewindSailor]

Okay, bit windy in the South Atlantic, but here's how a horseshoe acts when used 'in anger': http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8383946.stm

It just shows how easy it is to fall overboard.

Here we have a guy whose just unhooked from the security of his lanyard to go below. He obviously hadn't changed his mindset from being tied on ..... or he would have been holding on too.

Ideally of course he should have unclipped only after he was safely inside ...... BUT I suggest that if he had been used to hanging on rather than relying on his lanyard he wouldn't have gone over.

Don't misunderstand me ..... I'm in favour of harnesses, but I am also in favour of crew getting used to holding on to the boat, rather than trusting on some safety device. Look how useless the safety lines are!!!

 

[tudorsailor]

Those of us with MCA coded yachts have to have two horseshoes, both with full name written on ie Zebahdy of London and reflective strips. One has to be attached to a danbouy and one has to have a floating light. Having these things attached means that by the time someone has actually managed to detach all bits from their brackets, the MOB will be miles away. Surely if you are wearing a lifejacket you do not need a horsehoe lifebouy. Indeed why were they dangling it the South Atlantic video?

TudorSailor

 

[prv]

Those of us with MCA coded yachts have to have two horseshoes, both with full name written on ie Zebahdy of London and reflective strips. One has to be attached to a danbouy and one has to have a floating light. Having these things attached means that by the time someone has actually managed to detach all bits from their brackets, the MOB will be miles away.

This is why it's important to have a coherent arrangement for launching the things. I spent a while once designing a metal holder that would "throw" a horseshoe, light, danbuoy and drogue over the side at the pull of a toggle. You want to be thinking in terms of dropping this stuff on the guy's head as he goes past having slipped off the foredeck - reactions might not be quite fast enough to achieve that but it's the sort of timescale you want. Any action more complicated than a single pull/press/etc is too slow.

When it came down to it, due to a combination of my welder not being up to delicate stainless work and my boat lacking in space at the stern (in particular for a rigid danbuoy), I never built the thrower but bought the aforementioned JonBuoy instead. It ticks all the same boxes and is also less obtrusive to look at. And I'm told it's accepted by the relevant authorities as a replacement for the traditional items, though I guess maybe they might require two in your case which would be a bit pricey?

(And no, I'm not on commission )

Pete

 

[mikehibb]

I believe you still need a floatation device that can be thrown to a person in the water that at least allows them a chance to swim to it. This device should not be attached to the boat for the obvious reason that if you drift to far to heave a line, at least there is something in the vicinity to aid floatation.

To be honest, I have always thought of life-belts to be marker devices as opposed to recovery devices; immediately deploy as soon as you have a MOB.

However, today lifejacket wearing and plotters with MOB function are common but this isn't a reason not to deploy a floatation device immediately. In the video above it took them 17 minutes to recover the MOB. If your life-jacket fails to function you may be glad of the horseshoe.

The above from Blowingoldboots is exactly what I was taught many years ago.

Irresepctive of if a life jacket is being worn or not, throw the horse shoe (ours has the light too) It can give additional buoyancy, it can give addtional visibility, you can log the when and where it was deployed, this can help as a reference point for SAR.

When I had my nephews on board for their first time on our boat, this was part of the safety talk.

If there is a MOB, Shout MOB, lob the Horse shoe over board (hopefully in direction of MOB) and then stand fast keep eyes on and point at MOB, if MOB is no longer visible then point at the horse shoe. It will give us a reference point.

We do not consider the horse shoe as a recovery device, it is an aid to buoyancy for the MOB if spotted in time, and/or a spotting device for start of a search.

We will continue to always have a horse shoe on our boat.

 

[BrendanS]

As I understand it, the point of a horseshoe is that you can put it under your arms and behind your back, giving you support without having to hold onto anything.

Well, um, I can't.

I'm not a small bloke, but neither am I unusually large. The horseshoe that came with Kindred Spirit hasn't a hope in hell of fitting round me like that. It just about went round sideways, with one "arm" in front, one behind, and the curve of the horseshoe under one of my arms. But in getting it there the foam inside snapped into two halves, it was still squeezing my chest, and I was only wearing a T-shirt. Add a woolly jumper, smock and oilies, and even standing on the boat I probably couldn't get it round myself, let alone in the water.

It's been point out on here previously, that most are so stiff that there is no chance of getting within one, even if stick insect thin. If they are designed simply to hang onto, then there are surely better designs. If they are meant to go around the body, then they are useless as designed.

 

[Babylon]

The yelllow things are aids to SEE the position of a MOB, not help him float.

FWIW, we have both a horseshoe float (attached to which is a floating light but this is attached to the pushpit separately and needs a pin to pull it out), and a rigid danbuoy (with a flashing toplight) with a floating trailing line.

I considered tying the end of the danbuoy floating trailing line to the horseshoe float, but decided against it as that would mean having to release a total of three floating objects connected by two lines - all of which have the potential to get into a tangle.

My procedure would be to FIRST release and throw the danbouy - the object of this being for the remaining crew to see the approximate position of the MOB casualty (especially in any kind of a sea), then immediately manoeuvre and prepare the boat/sails/engine for as speedy a return as possible to the MOB.

As ALL crew are issued with and compelled to wear modern, fully-serviced self-inflating LJs on my boat whenever we're under way (else they don't get to come), aiding a MOB's floatation with a horseshoe float is low down on the list of priorities, but I still keep it there as a backup visual/floatation device to deploy if needed.

 

[Lizzie_B]

I've always held they were just about functionally useless. As Boomshanka's vid-clip shows clearly, you need to be close enough to place the horseshoe lifering into the hands of the 'casualty' and, if you're close enough for that, you're close enough to pass a lifting strop or clip on another personal lifeline, so the 'casualty' is once again secured to the boat.

In fact, they're worse than useless, for they create a false sense of security in crew members who haven't thought through the process seen in the above vid-clip. What's more, they cost money that could be better spent on kit that actually does work - such as a Lifesling and/or a Balcan throwing line.

What the clip shows is the crew of the yacht don't know how to use a horse shoe lifebouy. They're throwing it from the boat with a line attached to the the boat and throwing it to windward. Horseshoe bouys aren't designed to be thrown. The are supposed to be connected to a danbouy by a line. You deploy the danbouy and if the horseshoe is on a proper bracket, when the line becomes taught the horseshoe deploys.

The important thing is the danbouy, which is a visual marker for the crew and for the casualty. If the casualty is able, he has a better chance of seeing and making towards the danbouy and then using the additional bouyancy of the attached horseshoe, and the crew has a better chance of keeping the danbouy in sight and locating the casualty. The throwing devices are fine in situations where you can keep the casualty in sight until you are in range.

The most shocking thing about this clip is that a boat taking place in such a high profile and professionally organised race doesn't have a standard procedure of clipping on and off when down below,not when on deck. Prevention is better than cure.
The danbouy, of course, cannot match up to some of the modern techno wizardry such as 'crew watch' type systems, but then, many who boat on a budget are not able to deploy those types of systems.

The first rule is 'stay in the boat'. Not only does this guy undo his safety line before going below, but he continues to stand in the cockpit folding his line up. He's holding onto nothing, both his hands being occupied with that task and his vision's focussed on that small space in front of him paying no attention to what the sea is doing or what is going on around him.

He is a very lucky guy and I'm just glad they got him back, but the real problem seems to be a standard of training that is well below what I would have expected for an event like the Clipper RTWYR.

 

[prv]

My procedure would be to FIRST release and throw the danbouy - the object of this being for the remaining crew to see the approximate position of the MOB

Does the danbuoy have a drogue on it? If not, I'd be interested to know how fast it moves through the water in a breeze. I've never tested one - perhaps it barely moves at all - but it seems worth knowing if this is your plan. Most danbuoys have little drag against the water (a slim rod and a smallish weight) whereas the pull on a flag whipping in the wind can be appreciable.

That aside, I agree that visibility is a greater priority than a small piece of additional buoyancy if yours is a lifejackets-at-all-times boat.

Pete