hornblower

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Heckler

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was reading the "a ship of the line" by c s forester again for the zillionth time and noticed for the first time a reference to the sailors going to the "scuttle butt" for a drink of water, so i presume that is where the saying scuttle butt comes from, excuse for a chat and pass the time of day
stu


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Absolutely right. There's a host of 'martime' language in our everyday usage - nipper, rule of thumb, the devil to pay, touch and go.

Have you ever read the fictional biography of Hornblower by C Northcote Parkinson - 'The life and Times of Horatio Hornblower'. It joins up the Forester books very well and has some wonderful Forester like bits in the joints eg an admission that he did attempt the murder of Captain Sawyer and that this was eventually done by Wellard, the volunteer bullied by Sawyer.

IBSN 0-7509-1223-5 (hardback)
IBSN 0-7509-1224-3 (paperback)

Northcote Parkinson (one of our foremost naval historians) has also written a series of historica naval fiction about a Guerseyman called Delancey whose main problem is that his family have no money and he has no sponsor and will 'therefore never amount to much' - but he does. Worth tracking down

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by tillergirl on 23/11/2003 11:41 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
As I understand it, drinking water was always available only from a barrel kept on the upper deck. There was always a marine posted at the barrel to prevent wastage. (This applied at all times, not only in hot climes)
BUT there was a scuttlebutt and it does have a connection with relaxing and enjoying a gossip.
The lower deck (crew) were organised into 'Messes' of about 10-12 men/boys This was a very strictly held system and the mess always got their food issue together and arranged for one of them to go to the galley and arrange for its cooking. (Usually, of course, a stew and the ship's buscuit would be crushed to make a sort of dumpling).
Anyway, the system was sufficiently formalized and of such importance to good order that it was accepted practice that any member of a mess could apply on a given day each month to be moved to another mess if there was a falling out. (They had to be mates & get on in a crowded ship.)
Smoking was not allowed below decks (fire risk) so the matelots took to chewing 'baccy. It was the job of the youngest and most junior member of each mess to sit at the end of the table and hold the scuttlebutt which was the spittoon when the mess was off duty and enjoying a chinwag. This, you'll not be surprised to hear was not the most favoured of jobs !"

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no havent read the fictional

about hb, found csforester and hb as a boy more yrs ago than i can remember and managed to obtain a few of the books from maxines in llangollen, can sit and read them time after time, question: what is the follow up of a ship of the line? so i can see what happens to hb after the epic battle where we are left hanging when he strikes
stu

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Re: no havent read the fictional

Have you read a biography of Thomas Cochrane, Earl of Dundonald, upon whose naval exploits it is claimed Hornblower is based upon? I cannot remember which of his biographies I read (I have seen at least 2) but I enjoyed it almost as much as the Hornblower books.

John

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Re: no havent read the fictional

These come after Ship of the Line -

Flying Colours
The Commodore
Lord hornblower

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Re: no havent read the fictional

After "Lord Hornblower" comes "Hornblower in the West Indies", set in 1821ish.
The last book of all is "Hornblower and the Crisis", set between "Hornblower and the Hotspur" and "Hornblower and the Atropos". It was never finished as Forrester died while writing it.


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Re: no havent read the fictional

And then there's the Ramage Books by Dudley Pope - not as good as Forester but entertaining. Ramage is a bit too good to be true, he's Lord Ramage, silver spoon but young but with a problem as his father (an Admiral) is out of political favour and scapegoated for some else's problem. There is a series of 13 or so (I'm too lazy to get up and count them) and there are some nice threads through them and some nice moments.

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Re: no havent read the fictional

thats the one im missing
flying colours
stu

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk
 
But Forrestor was right to refer to the crews supply of drinking water as the scuttlebut. I'm not entirely clear where the 'scuttle' was - I beleive it was one of the upper entry ports. And we still use the word 'butt' as in a 'rainwater butt'

So the Scuttle Butt was just that - the butt at the scuttle, and probably the main place at which shipboard gossip was exchanged outside the crews messes.

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