Holding tanks - where compulsory now?

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40-50 ltrs is fine for one night.

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Size matters!
I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions on this.
Lady Jessie says 40-50 litres for one night only.
Lizzie_B says 75 litres (16.5galls) lasts 4 people for 3 days.
Does anyone else have a view on this?
 
I've been reading the Nigel Calder bible. It seems to be a fairly straightforward exercise to fit a holding tank although I'm more than a little concerned about the need for a 18mm breather pipe from the tank. Nigel suggests that this needs to be below the gunwhales to avoid any odours getting back to the cockpit but I don't fancy such a hole below what can reasonably be expected to be underwater from time to time. The breather pipe is key apparently to keeping the tank contents in an aerobic state. Anaerobic causes significant odour apparently.

Has anybody done a DIY tank fitting and was it okay to do?

rob
 
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Size matters!

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It surely does! But even more than size, your crew mix matters. Kids can flush through an amazing amount of water, no matter how often you teach them to be frugal. And don't get me started on teenage daughters....
 
Naturally size and volume of water/waste pumped matters. The experts tell us to ensure we pump enough water to clear all hoses of waste. Therefore the length and diameter of the hose from the toilet to the tank becomes a key factor in the number of uses before the tank fills.
Given the above and after experiments with our system, we determined that 12 up/down strokes of the pump was appropriate in almaost all cases. Based on that we calculated that a 40lt tank would accept about 12-14 uses. In practice this proved to be pretty close and we found with just the 2 of us it could last 4-5 days but as has been pointed out, less experienced users may mean the capacity is used more quickly.

My experience even with 4 aboard was that 40lt was adequate because one can often plan to use a toilet ashore or find other outlets for liquid only waste.

However, please DO use the holding tank. In the Med there are virtually no pump-out sites but the norm is to wait until 3 miles or more offshore then make a dump.
Ray
 
I have done this on a mobo but have also read up a lot about installation of waste systems on boats. The vent is necesarry, but for a heeling vessel, you would need to run a loop in the vent line and above the waterline for this to be correct. The image below does not show a vent from the tank but there should be one with a similar vent as the discharge line, above the expected waterline when heeled.
Of course, it makes much more sense to close all the drainage and vent cocks when sailing under those conditions anyway. imho(learned this one the hard way with a sink drain). Hope this helps.
If you want to read what I consider the bible on this subject, then read 'Get Rid of Boat Odors: a Boat Owner's guide to Marine Sanitation Systems and other sources of Aggravation and Odor', by Peggie Hall. Published by Seaworthy Publications Inc (ISBN 1892399156), and obtainable from www.amazon.co.uk Peggie often appears on these forms as Headmistress, so if you need help then just post a Headmistress Help!! kind of post and she may well appear, more likely better posting on PBO though.

toilet_option4.gif
 
Yes, but also, as said, so does crew mix and what else is going into it.
Ours only takes the toilet waste, not the grey water from washing up etc.
Also our tank is very close to the head.
We usually sail with a couple who lived aboard a 34 footer in the Med for a year where sometimes pump out facilities could be scarce.

As a result they are well disciplined in the art of using shoreside facilities whenever practicable and flushing the head with the minimum amount of water required.

We actually find this becomes part of a natural routine so doesn't seem to us like we're doing anything special.

By contrast, when we bought the boat the previous owner had fitted a 5 gallon tank to comply with Florida regulations as cheaply as possible.
We had one guest who normally sails a twin head 40 footer without holding tanks in the Solent and Channel.
Such was the vigour with which she flushed the head the tank would be full on one usage, to the stage where she was pumping it out of the vent pipe onto the pontoon alongside!!
Even our current tank would not see us far with that sort of useage /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

More disturbingly, the concept of using the shore side facilities when alongside in the Marina was entirely alien to her. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Still, I know better than to go swimming in a particular Solent marina! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

When the kids (teenage girls) are on board we find that we pump out every other day if marina hopping, or from morning, night at anchor to the following evening is about our limit. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
On our previous boat, because of the location of the tank the breather pipe came out onto the top of the coach roof in stainless steel swan neck. We never had any problems with smell going back to the cockpit. It was located close forward of the life raft cradle to protect from damage and was fine.

Our current boat has the breather pipe located just forward of midships, port side about two inches below the cove stripe. You may just be able to make it out in the pic
PaintJobRBday17020.jpg

Like wise we have experienced no problems other than the aforementioned vigourous flusher.

A friend has his portside on the flair of the bow about a foot below deck level. You may just make it out below and aft of the anchor windlass.
Captured2003-3-300000.jpg

He finds his holding tank can fill with sea water on a long beat to windward on starboard tack.
 
David , are you sure? Where you get this info? As we know, in Croatia holding tanks are not obliged. I shell appreciate any new info regarding this subject.
 
They are not compulsory in Norwegian waters (yet), but one assumes common sense prevails;
- no black water in marinas and preferably no grey water either.
- direct to sea at least 100 mtrs out (the further the better of course) and preferably when "underway"

One issue is the use of chemicals re. porta-potties ... and people tending to empty them "at sea" ... very much frowned upon and should only ever be emptied at a marina's onshore facilities.

Final note, around certain areas of the Norwegian coastline there has been discovered coral reefs which mean that speed will be restricted to 5knots from 2008 and this is also going to bring forward holding tank regulations sooner than later.
- charts will eventually be updated to reflect same over time I am informed, whilst local "fylke" (communities) have already started to issue local charts showing restrictions to be imposed.

M
 
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direct to sea at least 100 mtrs out (the further the better of course) and preferably when "underway"

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Dump 100 mtrs from shore??? You must have very low environmental requirements for swimming in Norway. I agree with the posts above that 3 miles offshore is a minimum for dumping holding tanks. Can we assume that you are a Norwegian mobo? That would explain a lot.
 
Branko, you've got it right.

To answer the Original Post, I'm not aware that holding tanks are compulsory in any sea waters of Europe.

It is, however, illegal to discharge sewage within 6nm of the coasts of many countries, and illegal to discharge even grey water (including washing up water, and water from bilge pumps) in some (Turkey for instance). Policing is random, often through a neighbour boat's complaint. And can lead to heavy fines.

This makes it very sensible to fit and use a holding tank for sewage. Also very civil. It's also a good defence (if there's a complaint) to allow the official to sample the contents of your tanks to show that you didn't need to discharge.

It is not, however, compulsory to fit a tank.

All bilge or shower water disposal should also be very discreet if you discharge it overboard in a harbour or marina in a non-tidal country.
 
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It is, however, illegal to discharge sewage within 6nm of the coasts of many countries, and illegal to discharge even grey water (including washing up water, and water from bilge pumps) in some (Turkey for instance)..

It is not, however, compulsory to fit a tank.

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We are discussing semantics here, are we not? If you are not allowed to discharge from your boat, does that not mean that you need a holding tank? How are you otherwise going to deal with your heads?? Discharge into your bilge? Get real! Holding tanks are both mandatory and a very good seamanlike solution for cruisers in near coastal areas.
 
whilst I do not agree with dumping, I still am not aware of where all the pump out staions are suddenly available in the Med or even in the UK for that matter. This must surely severely limit ones ability to sit in nice anchorages for a few days at a time, without having to up anchor and find a pump out station somewhere up the coast, that may well be more than a days cruising distance, and always assuming you can get a mooring once you are there, if required. Or is this not the case?
 
I presume in a circumstance such as you outline one would up anchor and head 6 miles offshore, flush the holding tank and return to the anchorage?

rob
 
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If you are not allowed to discharge from your boat, does that not mean that you need a holding tank? How are you otherwise going to deal with your heads?? Discharge into your bilge? Get real! Holding tanks are both mandatory and a very good seamanlike solution for cruisers in near coastal areas.


[/ QUOTE ] I assumed the OP may have been using the word 'compulsory' in the sense that holding tanks are a legal requirement. They are not. There are alternatives:

1. Plan ahead, or hold tight if you're inshore (loperimide helps).
2. Fit a chemical loo of you can't.
3. Or go further offshore . . .
4. Use a local loo when in harbour

I don't think all the tiny day cruisers which potter round our coastlines really want to fit holding tanks . . .

So, in your words, get real. Think of other styles of sailing before mandating new requirements.
 
To my knowledge there are no legal requirements for holding tanks on cruising boats in the Med. In Greece it is a requirement for charter yachts, but not for private yachts. I agree too with the comments from Gypsy about the capacity of the tanks. We have a 25 litre toilet tank and that is easily sufficient for 2 people for 3 days, as is our grey water tank of about 40 litres. As Gypsy pointed out - keep the volume in the pipe to a minimum so that less flushing water is needed. We spend very little time in harbours or marinas and when at anchor we swim at least 3 times a day so not a lot of urine gets into the tank. When we have guests aboard we tend to eat out more so use the facilities ashore. Just a little care and there isn't a problem.
 
I still think we discuss semantics here. Of course it is true that if you don't plan to discharge anything, you don't need a holding tank. I don't have a holding tank in my Laser sailing dingy for that very reason. But if you are talking about a normal size cruiser with a crew spending many days at an anchorage, there is no alternative to a holding tank to fulfill seamanlike and legal requirements. I have never come across anyone with a chemical loo, so there must be a reason why they are not common. Anybody seen one on a cruising boat?
 
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