Historic schooner sunk by container ship...

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Built in 1883, the "No 5 Elbe" was a 121ft pilot schooner, which had just had a £1.3 million refit. Sunk rather spectacularly by a container ship. Story here - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-collides-container-vessel-injuring-five.html

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There is a thread on the Wooden boat forum about this, apparently it was f5 gusting up to f7& the Elbe got into a position where she had little room to manouver out of the main channel & then missed stays when she went about, result was she paid of on the wrong tack straight across the bows of the container ship. Elbe has only just had a very costly rebuild. Very lucky nobody was killed. link here,http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?254715-Schooner-ELBE-5-ex-WANDER-BIRD-Sunk,
 
Minn said:
“Elbe no.5” much better known as “Wander Bird” is a very famous schooner indeed and I have no doubt that she will be back; I dare say the cap is being passed round in German yacht clubs even now.
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Perhaps the proceeds might be better directed to the person who is 'seriously injured'? I hope full recoveries are made by all those hurt.
It can't have been a nice experience for those on the container boat, having WAFI stumble under the bow and then have all the power gives way to sail crap thrown at them.
 
lw395 said:
Perhaps the proceeds might be better directed to the person who is 'seriously injured'? I hope full recoveries are made by all those hurt.
It can't have been a nice experience for those on the container boat, having WAFI stumble under the bow and then have all the power gives way to sail crap thrown at them.
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I think you will find that the injuries are an insurance matter.
 
lw395 said:
It can't have been a nice experience for those on the container boat, having WAFI stumble under the bow and then have all the power gives way to sail crap thrown at them.
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I believe that it has been established in the courts that continuing to tack up a channel is "standing on" so perhaps the give-way vessel should also be taking account of the possibility that the stand-on vessel misses stays.
 
I can't help thinking that "continuing to tack up a channel" is not a smart thing to when sharing that channel with not very manoeuvrable commercial vessels that are much bigger than you. It may be my right as a sailing boat, but there are lots of things that I have the right to do, but are capable of having a bad outcome.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I believe that it has been established in the courts that continuing to tack up a channel is "standing on" so perhaps the give-way vessel should also be taking account of the possibility that the stand-on vessel misses stays.
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I don't know exactly where the incident occurred, but the Elbe is not an easy place to tack in, with only a narrow channel outside the fairway and tides of 3-4 knots. The ship would have had few options other than just slowing down. Sailing craft are not permitted to sail in the buoyed fairway unless they are tacking, or crossing at near right-angle.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I believe that it has been established in the courts that continuing to tack up a channel is "standing on" so perhaps the give-way vessel should also be taking account of the possibility that the stand-on vessel misses stays.
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I suspect there will be local traffic management regulations around the port of Hamburg and its approaches which take precedence.
 
Old Harry said:
https://gcaptain.com/historic-germa...r-collision-with-containership-on-elbe-river/
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Very sad but good that no one dead.

I do find it extraordinary how many sailors only know the rule “motor gives way to sail”. And I am talking about contributors here, not the captain of the schooner.
For example I remember a bloke overtaking me in the Hamble screaming for me to give way because he was sailing. Twit.
I would be very surprised if the narrow channel rule or local regulations didn’t take precedence here but even if not, holding course and speed, whilst allowing for tacking, does not require the give way vessel to navigate with the benefit of hindsight, ie anticipate a failed manoeuvre. .
Anyway, an investigation is underway.
 
oldharry said:
How many commercial skippers know enough about sailing to even know that a sailing boat might miss stays?
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I’m a yacht master that teaches theory for power and sail to yachtmaster level, and whilst I only teach practical in motor boats I have done loads of yacht racing and cruising - I’d consider myself to be a competent sailor.

And I have no idea what you’re talking about. I guess it’s a flunked tack of some sort. But I’m not sure.

A commercial skipper may not have ever sailed. Why should he have?

To blame him for a collision for not anticipating that is laughable.
 
Elessar said:
Very sad but good that no one dead.

I do find it extraordinary how many sailors only know the rule “motor gives way to sail”. And I am talking about contributors here, not the captain of the schooner.
For example I remember a bloke overtaking me in the Hamble screaming for me to give way because he was sailing. Twit.
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In my case it was a X boat in Chi.
 
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