Help - You talked me into it!

cardinal_mark

cardinal_mark

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and I've started gathering spec's / putting together a list of boats to view - with presumably the usual dilemma; larger / newer AWB versus an almost microscopic and rather elderly HR or somewhere in the middle with a Moody etc.

I'm looking at all three options but the thing I'm struggling with is to differentiate within the Ben / Bav / Jen arena. Without wanting to trigger another old vs new debalce, which I'm sure your all bored of, I would like to get a view on when it was that Bavaria (and Ben / Jen?) started getting the reputation (whether legitimate or not) of being built down to a price?

I get the impression that some of the earlier models seem to be more highly regarded (and fall more comfortably into my budget!) but what I dont seem to able to pinpoint is when it all began to change. Is for instance a mid 1990's Bav 35 Holiday to be preferred to a later 34 or 36, or do I have to go back further in time? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick entirely?!

Any thoughts / insights appreciated

Mark

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Personally I would recommend that you looked at a mid 90's moody s31 /forums/images/icons/wink.gif - and blimey, i've just noticed that i've got one for sale!
However - back to the origonal question - firstly (this is one of my pet hates) Everything everywhere is built to a price otherewise the business would go broke - ok boat building is a bad example as most builders have gone broke! but you get my point
Any product including boats, are a compromise - you need to decide which compromises that you will except, obviously a 38 ft Bavaria at 60 something grand is going to be differenct to a 38ft Najad at 280 grand - and its amazing how many people complain that the Bavaria is not built to the same standard, or that the Najad is more expensive.
I would not necessarily say that anything built "cheaper" in the 2000's is "worse" than the earlier models as manufacturing and materials technology have contributed alot to the cost reductions recently - especially with Bavaria who productionise everything even to the point of having a massive CNC mill to cut all the cutouts and holes in the deck. So the same boat made by Bavaria today would be cheaper than the same boat made 10 years ago, purely on production cost savings.
However a good guide is the displacement, boats afterall are effectively bought by the kilo, not by the metre.
The other thing to bear in mind is the brand 'image' - you need to research how the market views such boats, so even if a early bavaria holiday is a much "better" boat than a new one (I'm not saying it is - just using your comparison), does the average punter know this , or when you sell it is it just another bavaria? This image may of course benefit you in the purchase.

I probably haven't answered your question at all! Bottom line is spend some time wandering around marinas having a look - decide what you want - the advantage of looking at some Ben / Jen / Bav's is that there will probably be a lot of examples of your particular model for sale, so you can look at a few rather than waiting ages for a particulary rare model to come on the market, and there should be a wealth of info from various owners, who are worth talking to and finding out the good and bad points of a particular marque - I haven' t met a boat owner yet who doesn't like showing off his pride and joy to anyone who asks!

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I think the bigger differences are in the design area. Personnally do not like the flat bottomed look that they have today, yes it is good for speed in the sheltered coastal waters, but leads to heavy pounding in bad weather, that has been known to cause damage inside the boat to the furniture (let alone the stress to the hull).

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Mark

Before you end up just becoming another 'sheep', think outside the square a little and take a good look at Maxi, Etap or even Hanse. All are very well built and you won't be 'in a fleet car in a company car park'.




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I remember reading a YM/YW review of a bavaria 41 holiday from around 97/98. They described the build quality as a cut above the rest.

To compare, I started looking at possible boats in 1999-2000 and thought that the bavaria quality was not so good then.

Therefore think something around 1998 was when the change must have occurred.


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Hi Mark,

we're more or less at the same stage as you. We spent our first day boat hunting yesterday, crawling over a lot of boats at the used boat show on the Orwell. Like you I'd been pulling together lots of info, looking up specs, drawing up lists etc.

There's a quote (Wellington?) that "no plan survives first contact with the enemy". And, based on yesterday, there seems to be no substitute for getting on the boats and saying to yourselves "can we live on this?". Some of my preconceived favourites went out of the widow once we discovered that we couldn't both fit on the berth, or my good lady saying "I couldn't put up with a boat this narrow", or how little storage space some designs have. For me, these factors have overridden some of the issues about image or pedigree which I had been pondering. I've no particular axe to grind in the "Ben/Jen/Bav vs ----- "(Insert name of "modern classic" of your choice) debate, and will try to keep as open a mind as possible, within the usual constraints of size & budget.

Finding the right boat is going to be a long slog, I fear...

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Beancounter,

I laughed at your post, because that was me too.......

We crawled over a number of boats at Levington too, and we too decided that we are going to have to think long and hard about the compromise between image/pedigree, performance, size, price, internal space etc etc....

Even my 9 year old daughter had a very firm opinion..... ah well.... bang goes my racer/cruiser... will I end up reaching a compromise of a cruiser/racer..... I suspect with all the females in the house, i'll be overruled to a cruiser /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif.... actually, I admit to revising my opinion a little.... even though I like the idea of some of the 'sportier' craft... I was more than a little lured by the space offered in some of the out and out cruisers... and as usual, my wife's common sense is slowly winning me over... after all thats what it'll be used for.... /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Its going to be a long and interesting search!

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A well respected make such as a Moody would be easier to resell/hold its value better.

If you found one with a replacement engine and hopefully newish rigging and sails IMHO you would have a better boat and ultimately a better investment.

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I hope you realise that on this site you probably won't get a fair opinion on the benefits of old/new etc. Try and balance the opinions here with some of the owner's web sites such as the Jeanneau owners one before you make up your mind.

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Yes, I do, but I think Mark is looking for something larger than my 28i. I believe people all to often only look at mainsteam boats and miss a lot of real good alternatives. I would encourage anyone to at least look at an ETAP, once mine is sold I will be taking ownership of another, larger ETAP.

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Lucky you!

Out sailing on a Hanse 371 last Sunday, sailed from New Town back to Gosport with 17 - 20 knt true on the beam at 7.5 to 8.5 knts! They do sail well. You will do even better as you will now benifit from North sails as standard, Nirvana has the original Hanse sails which are a bit saggy.



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we did our test sail on nirvana! small world. We've heard good things about the new North main and Jib and we're currently in discussion with Quantum, Parker & Kay and a few others about getting a crusing laminate Genoa aswell /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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Re: the less obvious options

<You'll need deep pockets for a Maxi, nice boats though they are>

Maxi... mmmm, love the look of them (esp 1100) but as you say, somewhat more cavernous pockets than mine are a fundamental condition!

I've had Etap on my list, albeit in the background, but have to say I've never considered Hanse which may well be worth a serious look based on what's being said here.

Dufour is another on my preliminary list after having a good experience on a 36 last spring in some pretty hairy conditions, but here again the 36 is a little beyond budget so will be more likely to have a look at some slightly older 35's. Does anyone have any experience of how these these compare to the 36 Classic?

Cheers

Mark

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Re: the less obvious options

At least take a look at the ETAP! What you will find is superb build quality and a very safe boat. You will find that the 32s has a higher Stix number than the Contessa 32 and some other heavy weights. Also take a look at the YM test report on the 37s, see what the testers say!

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Yacht or floating cottage?

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<font size=1>...there seems to be no substitute for getting on the boats and saying to yourselves "can we live on this?". Some of my preconceived favourites went out of the widow once we discovered that we couldn't both fit on the berth, or my good lady saying "I couldn't put up with a boat this narrow", or how little storage space some designs have.</font size=1>

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Err ... what about SAILING then? If space is top priority, you could do so much better with a houseboat!

I guess the AWB mentality is "It's CAT A isn't it? So that's taken care of." Well no, not necessarily.

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Re: Yacht or floating cottage?

For most people, well for me anyway, there are 2 sets of criteria, one about how well it sails, the other about "Can I live with this" is it light and airy, has enough stowage etc etc. Why not shorten the shortlist based on the layout and interior first of all? And then take a few out for a sail. Which I guess is what is happening here. I can't see the point in having a CRUISER which sails like a dream but which you can't live on for very long because its small, narrow, damp and dark. I also can't see the point in having a beautifully apointed cottage which sails like a dog. We made the final choice onour new boat based on sailing performance, but not before we had wandered around boat shows discounting various models on layout and interior alone (oh yes and budget!), and I can't see whats wrong with that.

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