Help with US sports cruiser manufacturer pecking order

[Dorset Dan]

Hi -we are in the process of looking for our first boat. We want a small sports cruiser, 25-30ft with 4 berth cabin to accommodate the odd overnight stay for myself, the wife and 2 children.

So far we have looked at:

Crownline 270 cr (2005) @ £32k
Sea Ray 240 (2003) @ £30k
Four Winns 248 Vista (2005) @ £34.5k
Rinker 270 fiesta vee (2004) @ £37k
Bayliner 275 (2005) @ £37k
Maxum 2700 se (2006) @ £32k

We are going to look at a couple more tomorrow:

Regal 2665 commodore (2008) @ £40k
Four Winns 248 Vista (2006) @ £39.5k

What I would like some guidance on is which of the US manufacturers (since they seem to dominate the market we are looking at) are seen as entry level, mid range and premium?

The condition of the boats we have seen has varied hugely. There are a couple we have ruled out just based on condition (Sea Ray, Rinker and Bayliner).

We thought the Four Winns seemed the best condition and quality but as we are looking at boats up to 10 years old I guess this could be as much to do with how they've been looked after.

It also had bow thruster, flexi teak decking and a few other aftermarket things which made it feel a better overall starter boat. It was diesel (Volvo penta kad32) whilst most others are petrol (a few have had mercuiser 350 mag) - we are going to be based in Poole and not looking at heavy use or huge distances so would we see the benefit of diesel, presumably it is better on fuel? I would prefer to pay more fuel for more readily accessible performance.

 

[Whitelighter]

Allegedly SeaRay are premium but its all reletive.

Swathes of plastic every where and it seems no one in the US knows what a tree is.

They are all much of a muchness, go on boat condition at 10 years old rather than whose carpet was nicer when new.

If the FourrWinns has the KAD 32 at 34.5k id go for that - its batter than the petrol lumps almost regardless of boat condition

 

[beejay190]

Have you looked at the Sealine S23

Popular starter sports cruiser with the very well thought of KAD 32. Seem to hold their value well.

Check out the Appollo Duck website , there are a few for sale there

 

[landlockedpirate]

If the FourrWinns has the KAD 32 at 34.5k id go for that - its batter than the petrol lumps almost regardless of boat condition

Sorry Jez, got to disagree,the FourWinns with a KAD32 is an awful combination, heavy and not enough power. The 5.7GSi is the one to go for,after all its a Sports Cruiser not a Snooze Cruiser

 

[landlockedpirate]

I have had a few of the boats on your list,but Whitelighter has mostly hit the nail on the head, quality is subjective and at the age you are looking at, the most important factor is condition. The other issue is that manufactures have either upped or downed specs during the life of a brand. In particular Rinker were very much bargain basement in the 90's,but by the 2000's they were producing premium quality very good boats. Mariah went the other way, premium brand to about 2005, plastic fantastic after that.

The only boats on your list I can list are Searay, Maxum and Bayliner because they were all owned by the Brunswick group. Searay was premium, Maxum midrange and Bayliner were value (but arguably the best value for money option). For all the rest I can list them in prchase price order,not perfect but an indication of the perceived quality. Starting at premium and working dowm, all IMHO of course

Searay
Regal
Four Winns
Rinker
Crownline
Maxum
Bayliner

But, with good condition I would be happy to own any of the boats you mention.

The Sealine is a different animal. much more traditional interior, less plastic and more wood. Its the only one with a proper galley and gas on board (useful for heating and cooking if away from shorepower). But its much much smaller than any of the other boats you are looking at thanks to an original hull length of just 21ft and an attempt at side decks which rob the interior of about 12" of width. A good option if you can live with its size. The Sealine is the only boat in the above list that I would consider with an old school oil burner (KAD32), all the other boats are too big/heavy for the 170hp it offers. If you are looking at D3's or D4's thats a different matter.

 

[Bubblegtt]

Our second boat was a 2004 Maxum 2700SE

It was a boat that we liked very much, apart from the canopy, which is the only reason that we changed to a hard top boat, though I do miss the wind in my hair.

 

[gjgm]

Actually, if you are looking at this many boats I think you probably have your own ideas about pecking order. You will surely have seen that a better built but older boat can look better than a newer lighter built boat. However, hull shape will determine its success in various seas, and you will have your own preferences on layout and design. Builders are pretty clued up on how to sell a boat, so, to make an obvious observation, if you intend the occasional (only) overnight, that suggests 90pct of the time you will not be down below. So do not fall for the wow factor in the 50pct of the boat you admit you arent going to use Hell, if it is occasional, take a b+b and stay warm dry and someone else can cook breakfast (and this is a serious suggestion).
Find the boat that offers what you want to do with it..consider the hull, where you will boat, petrol can make sense, but you are on the cusp.. how much space do you need- and where is that space, and take a good look at the boat and actual size.. the USA were masters of sticking 3 ft of swim platform on the boat for 500 quid and suggesting you were now in a whole new ballpark !
So if it is dayboating, how many people.. can you get passed each other or is the table in a dumb position..are the seats actually nice to sit in, or you need three cushions,is there some where to put bits and bobs, can you actually sit at the helm and do anything or do you have to sit/stand/bend/crouch, is there something to grab hold of when moving about the boat,, is it rounded edges or stupid sharp ones.
You will probably find the better builders get this right, and it costs more to do that.
I always liked the sports Regals, but wasnt a fan of their cruisers, but in the dim past I've owned two sports and they were both very good boats.
This is to be your boat, not someone else's, so make use of input from the forum, but make your decision for you and family.You will not keep the first boat for more than 18 months, by the way.
Keep looking and thinking, because the next part is the expensive one

 

[Dorset Dan]

Thanks for all the responses above

This is to be your boat, not someone else's, so make use of input from the forum, but make your decision for you and family.You will not keep the first boat for more than 18 months, by the way.

All noted, would rather not change after 18 months but time will tell!

We are looking at as many as possible before we buy, but very difficult to know what is a good boat and what is not (unlike cars where the pecking order of make/model is well known - I feel that I could fall into the trap of liking the shiniest boat I see!). I have a feeling that when we see the right one we will know, in the meantime I'll keep reading the forums and magazines to learn as much as I can and getting as many opinions as I can from those with more experience.

 

[Dorset Dan]

Our second boat was a 2004 Maxum 2700SE

It was a boat that we liked very much, apart from the canopy, which is the only reason that we changed to a hard top boat, though I do miss the wind in my hair.

Thanks for the vid, looks like you had fun with the Maxum. It's the second favourite of the boats we have seen, good layout for what we want and the one we have seen has an engine with only 25 hours on it.

It had a fading blue gel coat though which was the only big negative - how easy is it to restore it to a nice glossy colour, the broker said a 'quick polish' but I have my doubts.

 

[kanajobe48]

Hi
I have to agree with the comment above re the maxum, we had one exactly the same with a single kad44, very ecinomical, great layout, it was the perfect boat for us to get started in boating. I would recommend this as one of your options.
Nathan

 

[Whitelighter]

Just an idea, but I assume £40k or just under is your budget, what about this Sealine S28?

OK, its older but arguably better quality and bigger, with twin diesels. I reckon its buyable for somewhere between £35k and £38k depending on your cheekyness.

http://www.essexboatyards.com/boats-for-sale/sealine-s28-719

 

[Whitelighter]

Thanks for the vid, looks like you had fun with the Maxum. It's the second favourite of the boats we have seen, good layout for what we want and the one we have seen has an engine with only 25 hours on it.

It had a fading blue gel coat though which was the only big negative - how easy is it to restore it to a nice glossy colour, the broker said a 'quick polish' but I have my doubts.

Quick polish will restore it but it will only last for a few weeks. It really needs a proper cut then wax or polish topped up every 6-8 weeks. Or wrapping or painting

 

[Bubblegtt]

Quick polish will restore it but it will only last for a few weeks. It really needs a proper cut then wax or polish topped up every 6-8 weeks. Or wrapping or painting

Yes I machine polished ours two years running and it would last around three months before starting to fade again. Looked lovely when it was done though

The GRP was better quality than the Jeanneau Prestige 34 that we changed to and was a very solid boat, with far less rattles and creaks.

I think that a big advantage of the Sealine S28 is that you will not have to climb through the windscreen to get to the foredeck, so may well be worth a look.

 

[Dorset Dan]

Just an idea, but I assume £40k or just under is your budget, what about this Sealine S28?

OK, its older but arguably better quality and bigger, with twin diesels. I reckon its buyable for somewhere between £35k and £38k depending on your cheekyness.

http://www.essexboatyards.com/boats-for-sale/sealine-s28-719

Looks like a lot of boat for the money there and the broker seems to have a lot of stock, trouble is it's 4hrs each way from me........maybe worth a trip next weekend.......

 

[Whitelighter]

Essex are a good bunch to deal with, they have the main Fairline dealerships in the south. Its a brokerage boat rather than stock but they are always helpful when trying to do a deal. Give them a call and ask to speak to Nick or James Barke and they'll give you an honest appraisal and maybe an indication of what is likely deal wise before you make the trip

 

[Nigelpickin]

I've owned a few American Sports Boats and cruisers, all great fun but imho there's not much to seperate the boats you've listed...so if you are drawn to that type of boat go for the one you like the look of best....

Having said that I would go for the S28 every time, and twice on Sundays...if you can afford the extra running cost you will have a far broader boating life with a craft like that, longer season, better accommodation and it looks like a great price...good call from whitelighter...

 

[russ]

Our first and present boat is a 2005 Bayliner 265 which we have used on the Thames and now on the Solent. Great boat for the money and still love it after 4 years. Don't dismiss Bayliner, as I found out that history and condition are sometimes more important than make and the age.
It took me well over a year to find a decent boat along with a full service history. Nearly gave up all together after many wasted weekends searching.

Had my fingers burnt on a Regal with some serious hull and prop issues, luckily spotted by the surveyor before final purchase.

After a dash down to Poole one afternoon I knew immediately this 265 was the right one and made an offer.
Would have preferred diesel but the boats i did sea trial were quite smokey and noisy plus a higher purchase price.

If your not going to be trailering the boat I would go for a larger beam for the extra room it gives.
The reason for us going for our sized boat was for cheaper mooring and transport costs to the river or coast although we've only moved it twice since ownership so should have gone for the 275 or 285.

Good luck with your final choice.

 

[Dorset Dan]

A follow up:

Viewed the two boats yesterday, a Regal 2665 (2008) with 350 Mag MerCruiser in pristine condition and a Four Winns 248 Vista (2006) with Volvo D3 also in very good condition.

Similar prices (£40k and £39.5k respectively).

We are tempted to proceed with the Regal as it seems to be streets ahead of other boats we have seen in terms of condition and specification. However, it is more than we wanted to spend (ideally I didn't want to go over £30k) but if I can get a decent deal on it, hopefully its condition and age will mean it will retain its value a bit better come resale time. I think it would work for us as a starter boat and hopefully as it is not too old it shouldn't bring too many problems for someone not so handy with a spanner! Maybe the larger twin engine boat will be in a couple of seasons time if we really get into it and perhaps want to venture further afield.......

However, the thing that is making me hesitate on proceeding is a number of posts on US forums which indicate that the Regal 2665 with 5.7l 350 Mag is underpowered, struggles to get on the plane and associated issues with trim tabs / instability. Here is one such post as an example, albeit the owner has similar powered Volvo Penta (6.2 petrol??): http://www.regalownersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6521&sid=8f01fb5ea126248f01dcd736aaa8af91

Is this something to be concerned about? I am conscious that you can talk yourself out of anything by google-ing for problems but with potential issues on resale anyway with petrol I at least want to ensure that it is the right petrol engine for the size of boat.........

 

[Nigelpickin]

A follow up:

Viewed the two boats yesterday, a Regal 2665 (2008) with 350 Mag MerCruiser in pristine condition and a Four Winns 248 Vista (2006) with Volvo D3 also in very good condition.

Similar prices (£40k and £39.5k respectively).

We are tempted to proceed with the Regal as it seems to be streets ahead of other boats we have seen in terms of condition and specification. However, it is more than we wanted to spend (ideally I didn't want to go over £30k) but if I can get a decent deal on it, hopefully its condition and age will mean it will retain its value a bit better come resale time. I think it would work for us as a starter boat and hopefully as it is not too old it shouldn't bring too many problems for someone not so handy with a spanner! Maybe the larger twin engine boat will be in a couple of seasons time if we really get into it and perhaps want to venture further afield.......

However, the thing that is making me hesitate on proceeding is a number of posts on US forums which indicate that the Regal 2665 with 5.7l 350 Mag is underpowered, struggles to get on the plane and associated issues with trim tabs / instability. Here is one such post as an example, albeit the owner has similar powered Volvo Penta (6.2 petrol??): http://www.regalownersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6521&sid=8f01fb5ea126248f01dcd736aaa8af91

Is this something to be concerned about? I am conscious that you can talk yourself out of anything by google-ing for problems but with potential issues on resale anyway with petrol I at least want to ensure that it is the right petrol engine for the size of boat.........

Sea Trial!!!

It won't shoot up onto the plane but should get there in around 12 seconds..
These kind of boats can be tricky to trim, (for balance not bow rise), working tabs and indicators are essential.

Well worth a good spin out and push the boat around a bit...they are an acquired taste and can feel precarious when turning hard, esp with a beam sea...so a sea trial is a must...

Oh and I would haggle hard at that price at this time of year....what's the forum concensus? 30% less than asking price I think!

 

[landlockedpirate]

I had a Fourwinns 268 with the Volvo 5.7 GSi, a very similar boat to the Regal. Performance was excellent, up onto the plane quite easily even when fully loaded for cruising and 4 adults and 2 kids on board. top speed was around 40kts.

Reading the internet can be a dangerous thing, lots of reasons why the boat on the other forum might not be performing correctly, the choice of engine is not one of them. Americans can get really hung up about having huge amounts of horsepower, they prefer big blocks in everything (and lets face it with petrol art £3/gallon, who wouldnt )

The 5.7 is the best engine for that hull. I doubt you will get a 30% reduction on asking price unless its a stupidly motivated seller or a boat with a hidden problem that they want to shift.