Fire99
Well-Known Member
Horses and courses mate. However, you may want to check out some of the East Coast little leafy drying harbours / moorings. Choosing not to take to ground isn't an option there.
Help! What are bilge keels really like to sail?
- Thread starter chockswahay
- Start date
Horses and courses mate. However, you may want to check out some of the East Coast little leafy drying harbours / moorings. Choosing not to take to ground isn't an option there.
theguerns
Well-Known Member
bilge keeler
If you want the best bilge keeler you can get in the UK the Sadler 29 is it if yu send me an E-Mail I can send you a PDF I have just done for a client that is prepairing one for an around the world trip. I have sailed in the last 50 years many bilge keelers and have raced the Sadler 26 and 29 against many racing yachts and thrashed them as to pointing the only difference is about 3degs
My E-Mail address is psg1640@gmail.com
If you want the best bilge keeler you can get in the UK the Sadler 29 is it if yu send me an E-Mail I can send you a PDF I have just done for a client that is prepairing one for an around the world trip. I have sailed in the last 50 years many bilge keelers and have raced the Sadler 26 and 29 against many racing yachts and thrashed them as to pointing the only difference is about 3degs
My E-Mail address is psg1640@gmail.com
Allan
Well-Known Member
100% agree. I sail in the Bristol channel and bilge keels were number one on the wish list I drew up when looking for my boat.
One thing I would add. I sailed my boat for a year when I first bought her, thinking she sailed OK for a 'big old bilge keeler'. I then spent £30 getting the rig set-up. She is now a different boat and sails much better than I ever expected.
Allan
bbg
Well-Known Member
I did read your first thread on this subject, and then this one, and I have to say I am somewhat surprised that the keel configuration is one of your defining priorities - at least in the way you have done. Keel configuration is not something you should select for. It is something that your other requirements point you towards.
So, someone who said they wanted to take the ground regularly would be pointed towards bilge keels, centreplates or other configurations that can take the ground. Those who seek performance will look for deep bulb fins or light multihulls. But it seems strange to me that someone would start their analysis by saying that they want a particular keel arrangement.
If you want a comfortable, offshore capable cruiser you don't need to start by defining the keel configuration. That is secondary, because there are a lot of boats that meet that criteria with deep fins, long keels, bilge keels and anything else you can think of.
And I'm glad Flaming pointed out that Vendee boats don't have twin keels, because he saved me the trouble of doing it. No modern purpose-designed racing boats have twin keels. Which tells you something about performance of twin keels.
flaming
Well-Known Member
That boat was in Titchmarsh for all of those 15 years. Whilst we could dry out, and the boat was originally purchased with the intention of doing so, we found we never really bothered. Didn't overly restrict the cruising either. We made it to snape a few times, for example, just didn't bother drying out, just turned round and got on with the sailing.
I know there are people who love drying out, but I'd be prepared to bet that the vast majority of bilge keelers never do.
kesh
Well-Known Member
except he hasn't said bilge keel is a "defining priority"
as someone in a similar position to the OP i get responses like this that seem to underestimate the intelligence of the post. my guess is that he is exploring all possibilities. one thinks "how about a bilge keeler" and tests that idea by imagining owning one. this is different to saying "it has to be a bilge keeler".
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear the Hunter is going well Pete. I agree that twin keel boats are good, but for optimum performance they need to be at least 12 feet apart......
bbg
Well-Known Member
Except he did start his first thread on this subject as follows:
which suggests to me, together with this thread, that he is looking at the keel configuration as one of his defining criteria. All I am saying is that the keel configuration should be a consequence of other criteria - not the starting point.
jb267
Member
horse for courses...
My experience is that bilge keels can point the same as the equivalent fin (we have new sails), but the course over ground (leeway) can be different. Sailing a degree or two further off brings the speed up and the leeway down. Do not try pinching - waste of time.
Otherwise, speed, seaworthiness etc no real difference.
The main questions is based on where you sail, will the keel make a difference to your enjoyment of the boat in harbour or at anchor! In 2007, we made it to Sauzon (Brittany) in a building gale at high tide. We went out the back of the port, made fast to fore and aft buoys and spent most of our 4 day there dryed out. For the next few days, we walked (dinghy not required) for a beer that we enjoyed whilst watching the deep keel boats rafted on bouys outside, damage their topsides and bash their rigging together. Crew on those boats were seasick without going anywhere and often it was too rough for them to get off in a dinghy.
We have dried out in some really peaceful, idyllic places so the BKs suit our cruising very well!
...but now we are in Greece - and guess what, we still have an advantage! Our 1.3m draft gets us sneaked into anchorages / port spaces where we would not have got into at all with deeper draft (due to crowds...). Also no problems with a winter space ashore anywhere because we don't need a cradle and can be put into slightly tighter spaces. Having read about the Ionian gales, I'm glad we are firmly perched on 2 lumps of iron in Preveza.
Boat is Moody 34 BK, sails beautifully. If you want to race, buy a racer, if you want to cruise, buy some comfort, if you sail in tidal / crowded waters, buy some accessibility.
My experience is that bilge keels can point the same as the equivalent fin (we have new sails), but the course over ground (leeway) can be different. Sailing a degree or two further off brings the speed up and the leeway down. Do not try pinching - waste of time.
Otherwise, speed, seaworthiness etc no real difference.
The main questions is based on where you sail, will the keel make a difference to your enjoyment of the boat in harbour or at anchor! In 2007, we made it to Sauzon (Brittany) in a building gale at high tide. We went out the back of the port, made fast to fore and aft buoys and spent most of our 4 day there dryed out. For the next few days, we walked (dinghy not required) for a beer that we enjoyed whilst watching the deep keel boats rafted on bouys outside, damage their topsides and bash their rigging together. Crew on those boats were seasick without going anywhere and often it was too rough for them to get off in a dinghy.
We have dried out in some really peaceful, idyllic places so the BKs suit our cruising very well!
...but now we are in Greece - and guess what, we still have an advantage! Our 1.3m draft gets us sneaked into anchorages / port spaces where we would not have got into at all with deeper draft (due to crowds...). Also no problems with a winter space ashore anywhere because we don't need a cradle and can be put into slightly tighter spaces. Having read about the Ionian gales, I'm glad we are firmly perched on 2 lumps of iron in Preveza.
Boat is Moody 34 BK, sails beautifully. If you want to race, buy a racer, if you want to cruise, buy some comfort, if you sail in tidal / crowded waters, buy some accessibility.
LORDNELSON
Well-Known Member
Well, how about all the twin keelers one sees on drying moorings? Dell Quay, Emsworth, Newport, Brading, Ryde, Portchester, Upper Hamble, Christchurch,Teignmouth, Exe,Newton Ferrers etc., and they all pay less for their moorings too!
oldharry
Well-Known Member
One distinct advantage for Solent sailors is the possibility of a mooring that doesnt require a second mortgage!
Searush
Well-Known Member
Dear Flaming,
I see you are based in Southampton, with its 4x mini-tides per day. No wonder you don't need a bilge keeler. As already mentioned, try the Bristol Channel, North Wales or similar locations with 8-12m tides and shallow drying harbours. The motivation for bilge keels suddenly becomes more relevant. I have had twin keeled boats for 30 years & they have dried out twice a day, every day in that time - unless I happen to be visiting one of the few deep water anchorages or harbours in the locality. I also regulary "park" on beaches for the children (now grandchildren) it is a highlight for them & no problem for me or the boat. It also means I can anchor well inside everyone else when an anchorage is crowded.
General info;
The man who "invented" twin keels (Lord Riversdale) sailed his Bluebird of Thorne around the world. Bearing in mind that Lord Riversdale mentions meeting Commander Rayner & explaining the principles of his design (and that his final boat was part designed by Laurent Giles) then the success of the early Westerlys (designed by Rayner & L-G) ceases to be a surprise.
I don't often go "offshore" but I have sailed extensively in the Irish Sea which has some nasty overfalls & short steep seas. In my expereince, my boats have seldom slammed & have always looked after me. Many bilge keelers have crossed oceans. We have a lot of them in the UK because they were invented here to suit our waters. There are quite a few twin keel Westerlys in the USA too.
I see you are based in Southampton, with its 4x mini-tides per day. No wonder you don't need a bilge keeler. As already mentioned, try the Bristol Channel, North Wales or similar locations with 8-12m tides and shallow drying harbours. The motivation for bilge keels suddenly becomes more relevant. I have had twin keeled boats for 30 years & they have dried out twice a day, every day in that time - unless I happen to be visiting one of the few deep water anchorages or harbours in the locality. I also regulary "park" on beaches for the children (now grandchildren) it is a highlight for them & no problem for me or the boat. It also means I can anchor well inside everyone else when an anchorage is crowded.
General info;
The man who "invented" twin keels (Lord Riversdale) sailed his Bluebird of Thorne around the world. Bearing in mind that Lord Riversdale mentions meeting Commander Rayner & explaining the principles of his design (and that his final boat was part designed by Laurent Giles) then the success of the early Westerlys (designed by Rayner & L-G) ceases to be a surprise.
I don't often go "offshore" but I have sailed extensively in the Irish Sea which has some nasty overfalls & short steep seas. In my expereince, my boats have seldom slammed & have always looked after me. Many bilge keelers have crossed oceans. We have a lot of them in the UK because they were invented here to suit our waters. There are quite a few twin keel Westerlys in the USA too.
flaming
Well-Known Member
I may be in Southampton now, but I spent my formative years sailing a 26 foot bilge keeler on the East coast. Like I said, we intentionally dried that boat out once.
And as I said, I do get that some people want, and use, the ability to dry out. But I would still put money on the vast majority of bilge keelers not drying out other than for a scrub.
In which case they'd be better off with a fin keeler, which was certainly the conclusion we made and have had fin keel boats since the mid 90s - still based on the East coast.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
You make a good point unintentionally for me.
I've a bilge keeler (ok triple keel but same difference) and to be honest it's taken me a while to remember to treat it like one.
I've been anchored and started flapping about how much water i've left myself etc and forgot that it doesn't matter.
I agree that a good number of bilge-keel owners probably don't take the full advantage of having a boat that can sit on the bottom and crawl into shallow creeks but maybe i'll start doing classes on it.
Back on topic, I don't doubt that for ultimate performance then a modern racy fin keel boat with modern racy sails, rigging, winches and of course a captain who knows how to get the best out of it, is the way to go.
I also agree that there are Some bilge Keelers that don't like heading towards the wind but I would avoid generalising or putting anyone off this setup as I don't doubt the myth is far greater than the reality.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Twice a day. Every day.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Quite so. I put together a little gallery of different keels for comparison purposes http://www.lakelandimages.co.uk/keels/
davidfox
Well-Known Member
the "Last couple of Degrees" might be as much as 15>20
Having had both fin and bilge keel boats, (i have a fin now) I think that there is a lot of tosh spoken about them (not suggesting this of you sailorman!)
If you sail up and down in the summer half the boats you pass, have badly trimmed sails or they are old and knackered (like the ones on mine) most leisure sailors are not even attempting to sail there boats to the optimum, a well sailed bilge keeler will beat the ass off of a indifferently sailed fin and a bilge keeler with decent sails will likewise do the same to a fin with poor sails.
Its horses for courses, its probably more appropriate to have a bilge keeler on the east coast than the south, if you want to go in close. You certainly dont have the acute butt clenching moments that you have on a fin, you can also scrub off when you like by just running up the beach, that will give you an extra knot or two if its speed you are after.
I also have experience on a Moody 346 bilger that I owned of getting caught out in 45-50knots in the north sea coming across from Holland, reducing after a few hours to a mear 35knots, I was bricking it but I dont think the boat was!!
So i'm quite a fan.
samwise
Well-Known Member
Re offshore capability, I have a feeling that the Sadler 29 that completed the 2009 ARC was a bilge keeler. The 29 that we owned certainly was. Our boat was great for East Coast exploring but harder going on a bigger voyage such as a N. Sea crossing, where the windward keel slamming got to be very boring.
The B/K configuration was a particular source of annoyance to my wife who always got the job of antifouling between the keels -- chiefly because she is smaller and more bendy than me. We now have a Westerly fin keeler that draws 1.7m, which demands a bit more concentration crossing the Deben Bar!
The B/K configuration was a particular source of annoyance to my wife who always got the job of antifouling between the keels -- chiefly because she is smaller and more bendy than me. We now have a Westerly fin keeler that draws 1.7m, which demands a bit more concentration crossing the Deben Bar!
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Agree entirely, with the exception of a few older boats with very shallow bilge keels (Macwester 26 etc). Not much wrong with most bilge-keelers except a slight loss of windward performance.
Sailing skill makes much more difference - it horrifies me how many people on modern AWBs go from a beat to a reach without adjusting the genoa track (top of leech of genoa flapping horribly), and at the same time oversheet and stall the main.
I've had a centreboarder, bilge-keeler, long-keeler and modern deep bulbed fin: all bought to be suitable for the money available and the sailing area. And with the current 6 ft fin I sometimes wish I had shallower bilge keels.
benw
Well-Known Member
Bilge Keelers
We have a Sadler 32 B/K and find the keel arrangement to be great. The asymmetry of the keels enables good up wind performance. Sail condition and trim as well as fowling on the hull provide bigger issues. Most people who haven't experienced B/K seem to quote all sorts. We have no complaints.
We have a Sadler 32 B/K and find the keel arrangement to be great. The asymmetry of the keels enables good up wind performance. Sail condition and trim as well as fowling on the hull provide bigger issues. Most people who haven't experienced B/K seem to quote all sorts. We have no complaints.